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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito

View Poll Results: Did Jack write the GSG?
YES 74 38.34%
NO 119 61.66%
Voters: 193. You may not vote on this poll

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  #661  
Old 04-24-2015, 07:25 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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JtR rarely killed without anybody noticing something.

Nichols was found maybe still barely alive, although unconscious and dying. JtR likely exited when he saw the witnesses coming.

Chapman fell against the fence while her neighbour was in the yard who heard her say 'no' with a slump. He thought nothing of it.

Stride was attacked in view of Schwartz by JtR who cried out Lipski.

Eddowes was seen with a man with her hand on his chest. It is likely a beat officer's beam of light didn't extend far enough to have seen JtR in the process of killing Eddowes.

We have two witnesses seeing one-two people with MJK on the night/morning before she was killed.

We have loads of witnesses enough to put together a general idea of a very common looking man in his earlier years. Peaked cap. Moustached. 5' 6''. Stout. Good length dark jacket.

JtR wasn't very quiet about picking and killing a victim. However he was silent in that he was able to get away very quickly. I think he just lived near the centre of all this activity and was home within a few minutes.

Stride's murder location is important for those interested in the Torso murders plus we have two good suspects living within a stones throw of each.
Hi Batman

Quote:
Peaked cap.
thank you!
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #662  
Old 04-24-2015, 10:20 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi HarryD
anyone can lose their temper.

My take is that after spending considerable time and money on Stride, and she still refusing to accompany him to a secluded spot he simply lost his temper and attacked her.
Hello, Abby.

That would mean he proceeded to kill Stride afterwards, despite being seen by no less than two eyewitnesses. He could've left Stride alone and gone in search of another victim (which he did anyway), but now he's a murder suspect. Then there's, of course, the thorny matter of the cachous.
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  #663  
Old 04-24-2015, 12:45 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hello, Abby.

That would mean he proceeded to kill Stride afterwards, despite being seen by no less than two eyewitnesses. He could've left Stride alone and gone in search of another victim (which he did anyway), but now he's a murder suspect. Then there's, of course, the thorny matter of the cachous.
Hi Harry

I have always felt that (in one scenario) he could have cut her throat in the initial attack that Scwartz witnessed, but that Schwartz didn't see that much detail. And that after everyone leaves the scene, stride stumbles into the yard toward the singing/voices for help but expires in the yard. In this scenario, he only notices Schwartz after the cut throat. which would explain the single cut and the "not too loud" screams.

In another, after the witnesses flee,he drags her into the yard, then cuts her throat. But spooked by being seen, and possibly the nearby singing voices, and/or the approach Diemshitz, he splits to fight another day, or hour in this case.

Either way, its why she wound up with only a cut throat and not inside out.


Yes the caschous is somewhat enigmatic, I'll admit- but in my opinion she just held on to them during the attack. Its common knowledge with forensic experts that people can hold onto items through violent attacks, accidents unto death.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #664  
Old 04-24-2015, 12:56 PM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Harry

I have always felt that (in one scenario) he could have cut her throat in the initial attack that Scwartz witnessed, but that Schwartz didn't see that much detail. And that after everyone leaves the scene, stride stumbles into the yard toward the singing/voices for help but expires in the yard. In this scenario, he only notices Schwartz after the cut throat. which would explain the single cut and the "not too loud" screams.

In another, after the witnesses flee,he drags her into the yard, then cuts her throat. But spooked by being seen, and possibly the nearby singing voices, and/or the approach Diemshitz, he splits to fight another day, or hour in this case.

Either way, its why she wound up with only a cut throat and not inside out.


Yes the caschous is somewhat enigmatic, I'll admit- but in my opinion she just held on to them during the attack. Its common knowledge with forensic experts that people can hold onto items through violent attacks, accidents unto death.
Hi Abby,

The major problem isn't whether she held onto the cachous but why she would have taken out the packet in the first place. I mean, this is surely something she would do whilst relatively relaxed and not after just being assaulted, let alone during the assault. And certainly not whilst her violent assailant was close by. No, I think her killer was far more cunning and appeared unthreating, leaving Stride blissfully unaware of the danger she was in; that's why she was relaxed enough to take out the packet of cachous. Someone like JtR, for example. Someone very unlike unsubtle BS man.

Of course, consideration also needs to be given to the fact that Stride was violently murdered in Dutfield's Yard, by a silent killer who gave his victim no opportunity to cry out or, apparently, make a sound. No one, not even Mrs D, who was sat just feet away in the kitchen with the window open heard a thing. Again, this seems like a very cunning and experienced killer. Someone like JrR. Someone very unlike clumsy BS man.

Last edited by John G : 04-24-2015 at 01:20 PM.
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  #665  
Old 04-24-2015, 03:57 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Because he felt it was Jews that interrupted him. You're just talking in circles now.

Anyway, the point was the apron, the GSG gives us context for it. Did he really NEED to write death to all Jews after he just pulled someone's intestines out and sprayed them all over the ground?
Hello Dane,

You seem to be assuming that the B.S. man was Liz's killer which is a very big assumption.

Did he need to write death to all Jews or something like it? No, but it seems odd that he didn't.

c.d.
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  #666  
Old 04-24-2015, 05:05 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post

I have always felt that (in one scenario) he could have cut her throat in the initial attack that Scwartz witnessed, but that Schwartz didn't see that much detail. And that after everyone leaves the scene, stride stumbles into the yard toward the singing/voices for help but expires in the yard. In this scenario, he only notices Schwartz after the cut throat. which would explain the single cut and the "not too loud" screams.

In another, after the witnesses flee,he drags her into the yard, then cuts her throat. But spooked by being seen, and possibly the nearby singing voices, and/or the approach Diemshitz, he splits to fight another day, or hour in this case.
In either case there would be considerable blood loss in the entry, and down the front of her clothes, not to mention a trail of blood from the gateway to where she was found.
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  #667  
Old 04-24-2015, 07:38 PM
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Hello Dane,

You seem to be assuming that the B.S. man was Liz's killer which is a very big assumption.
The probability of Stride being attacked twice by different people in the space of 10 minutes is the bigger assumption because it is more complex and a much lower probability than one assault that resulted in death.
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  #668  
Old 04-24-2015, 07:43 PM
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In either case there would be considerable blood loss in the entry, and down the front of her clothes, not to mention a trail of blood from the gateway to where she was found.
There are no mud evidence because the crime scene was disturbed significantly including the body.

Schwartz doesn't describe her neck being cut. He describes her being thrown down. Its a few feet from where her body was found. I don't see whats in the way of him dragging her in before killing her.
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Last edited by Batman : 04-24-2015 at 07:46 PM.
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  #669  
Old 04-24-2015, 09:12 PM
Dane_F Dane_F is offline
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Hello Dane,

You seem to be assuming that the B.S. man was Liz's killer which is a very big assumption.

Did he need to write death to all Jews or something like it? No, but it seems odd that he didn't.

c.d.
Where have I said I assumed any specific person attacked Liz? The only things I've ever said is that JTR likely killed both and that the GSG was written by him due to the apron being dropped there on purpose instead of by random happenstance. Those are what the facts and odds support and that's where I stop.

Other people have made assumptions about who the killer was based off witnesses, tried to interpret the GSG with their own understanding, and attempted to make nearly everything that occurred that night accidental. I tend to shy away from that stuff. I can see arguments for multiple different scenarios.

As far as what JTR wrote, the Police didn't find it odd and took the GSG very seriously. His message apparently had a strong effect to the people that lived and worked the crime scenes. That to me is far more telling than if someone 125 years later finds it menacing enough or not.

Last edited by Dane_F : 04-24-2015 at 09:16 PM.
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  #670  
Old 04-24-2015, 09:36 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hi Abby,

The major problem isn't whether she held onto the cachous but why she would have taken out the packet in the first place. I mean, this is surely something she would do whilst relatively relaxed and not after just being assaulted, let alone during the assault. And certainly not whilst her violent assailant was close by. No, I think her killer was far more cunning and appeared unthreating, leaving Stride blissfully unaware of the danger she was in; that's why she was relaxed enough to take out the packet of cachous. Someone like JtR, for example. Someone very unlike unsubtle BS man.

Of course, consideration also needs to be given to the fact that Stride was violently murdered in Dutfield's Yard, by a silent killer who gave his victim no opportunity to cry out or, apparently, make a sound. No one, not even Mrs D, who was sat just feet away in the kitchen with the window open heard a thing. Again, this seems like a very cunning and experienced killer. Someone like JrR. Someone very unlike clumsy BS man.
Hi john G
In both those scenarios, she takes the cashoo out before he attacks her. Probably whilst they were meandering about.

I agree, BS mans actions seem very un ripper like. All I can say is that I think he may have just lost his temper once he realized she wasn't falling for the ruse.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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