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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #401  
Old 08-24-2017, 08:16 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I'm glad you say "looks like", Jon, because that doesn't indicate which order the wounds were inflicted - ALL the wounds were caused during life. That aside, I still struggle with the idea of his using two knives, one 37 times and the other only once.
Your struggle hasn't gone unnoticed Sam, although my post citing the problems with a single assailant and 2 knives surely has.
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  #402  
Old 08-24-2017, 01:25 PM
curious curious is offline
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Killeen does mention the abrasion to her scalp, Curious
didn't see that. Thanks, Jon.
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  #403  
Old 08-24-2017, 02:49 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Killeen states that the wound to her heart was sufficient to cause death.
He didn't say it was sufficient to cause instant death, though. I'm not being picky, by the way: being stabbed in the heart would almost certainly be fatal, but it need not kill a person right away. Indeed, it's even possible to survive.
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  #404  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:34 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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A question I raised very early in this thread is that of the question of 2 weapons. I believe that Ive read that multiple stab wounds with more than one weapon is often result of the failure of the first weapon used and another weapon being chosen based on ready availability, not because the attacker had 2 weapons from the start.

Unless we have some wound that reflects that the smaller pen knife broke during the attack, the likelihood that the same offender used another weapon that was not available at the scene is lessened.
Straight off I should say that I think poor Martha Tabram was probably a ripper victim. That colours my response to your question. A possible explanation for two weapons is that he was trying things out. The penknife type blade (easier to carry and explain away if caught carrying) was insufficient and so he used a second, which worked better for him. I do not know if the one mutilation recorded (as opposed to the 39 stab wounds) was using the smaller or larger blade (vagina cutting).


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We also have evidence that a soldier questioned near the site of the attack said he was waiting for a buddy who went off with a girl, so it seems soldiers were travelling in pairs that night. Which is a reasonable explanation for 2 weapons being readily available at the scene.
I am sure the soldiers were in pairs or small groups during the night - but would have separated for sex. Your proposition is not unreasonable but not the only possibility.
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  #405  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:42 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Straight off I should say that I think poor Martha Tabram was probably a ripper victim. That colours my response to your question. A possible explanation for two weapons is that he was trying things out. The penknife type blade (easier to carry and explain away if caught carrying) was insufficient and so he used a second, which worked better for him. I do not know if the one mutilation recorded (as opposed to the 39 stab wounds) was using the smaller or larger blade (vagina cutting).




I am sure the soldiers were in pairs or small groups during the night - but would have separated for sex. Your proposition is not unreasonable but not the only possibility.
HI Etenguy
I agree re the knives (if he did indeed use two different ones on her).and I also think she was a ripper victim(raised skirt is the clincher for me).

I think the ripper was probably accustomed to carrying around a pen knife-at least in the beginning.

I think Annie Millwood was probably the first, or early victim, and he attacked her with the pen knife he was used to carrying around.

figured out it wasn't big enough to do the trick and then got a second larger knife that would. and had both these on him when he attacked Tabram.

just my speculation of course.
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  #406  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:27 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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HI Etenguy
I agree re the knives (if he did indeed use two different ones on her).and I also think she was a ripper victim(raised skirt is the clincher for me).
Yes, the similarities are striking, though of course the lack of having her throat cut and extensive mutilations talks against it - but could be explained as an early killing while his method was being refined.

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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I think the ripper was probably accustomed to carrying around a pen knife-at least in the beginning.

I think Annie Millwood was probably the first, or early victim, and he attacked her with the pen knife he was used to carrying around.

figured out it wasn't big enough to do the trick and then got a second larger knife that would. and had both these on him when he attacked Tabram.

just my speculation of course.
That makes sense. I do not know a lot about the Annie Millwood attack, but the little I know supports your theory, but is far from conclusive.
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  #407  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:50 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Yes, the similarities are striking, though of course the lack of having her throat cut and extensive mutilations talks against it - but could be explained as an early killing while his method was being refined.
He refined his technique pretty quickly, if that was the case, shifting his focus from the upper abdomen and chest to the lower abdomen, and from multiple frenzied stabs to long, deep incisions, with savage cuts to the throat.
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  #408  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:05 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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He refined his technique pretty quickly, if that was the case, shifting his focus from the upper abdomen and chest to the lower abdomen, and from multiple frenzied stabs to long, deep incisions, with savage cuts to the throat.
Multiple stabs to the throat is not that far removed from sawing his way around the neck.
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  #409  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:48 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Multiple stabs to the throat is not that far removed from sawing his way around the neck.
I see it as very far removed. It's certainly less efficient than a swift, deep cut. Besides, the cutting of the throat was the cause of death in the Ripper murders, but in Tabram's case the throat wounds were secondary and entirely superfluous.
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  #410  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:29 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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I see it as very far removed. It's certainly less efficient than a swift, deep cut. Besides, the cutting of the throat was the cause of death in the Ripper murders, but in Tabram's case the throat wounds were secondary and entirely superfluous.
Taking on your points, the killer has therefore learnt that 39 stabs takes a lot of energy, and cutting the throat is a quick and silent method of despatch.
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