What did a carman look like?

[Billiou]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;374335]Nope - we only know that it seems so, and that owes to how he wore it in court. But strictly speaking that only proves he wore it in court.

But if we go back to my original post, wasn't there an also indication from the witness statements that Cross and Paul looked like carmen? ie they must have been wearing aprons, as in my original question, what does a carman look like?

Which I really meant to ask, not what they probably looked like (from which we can only tell from old photos), but how did they look to the witnesses at the time?

[Abby Normal]

the pictures of the Carmen with their sacking aprons got me wondering:

Per the previous discussion on: if Carmen didn't help load and unload etc. what do they need a sacking apron for?

[DJA]

Warmth.

Some Carmen would have pitched in with the loading and unloading.

The Livery Company and the trade had become unregulated.

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=Billiou;374339]

Nope - we only know that it seems so, and that owes to how he wore it in court. But strictly speaking that only proves he wore it in court.

But if we go back to my original post, wasn't there an also indication from the witness statements that Cross and Paul looked like carmen? ie they must have been wearing aprons, as in my original question, what does a carman look like?

Which I really meant to ask, not what they probably looked like (from which we can only tell from old photos), but how did they look to the witnesses at the time?

The best guess would be that they wore their aprons and caps. Then again, the caps had signs on them at times, so maybe that was enough to point to a carmanship. There is also the time aspect to consider - maybe people who traversed the East End from east to west at that time of the day were mostly carmen, and so Mizen made his guess from that knowledge to a degree.

[Fisherman]

the pictures of the Carmen with their sacking aprons got me wondering:

Per the previous discussion on: if Carmen didn't help load and unload etc. what do they need a sacking apron for?

That is a very good question, Abby, and I wish I had thought of it myself...!

[MrBarnett]

This is interesting.

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications5/business-06.htm/

It includes this about Pickfords' procedures:


Every van has a driver and a "book-carrier," who acts as conductor and delivers the goods. At night, when his van is unloaded, and after its final journey, the book-carrier goes to his head office, and "books" his work - which means giving a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day. These accounts are then sent to Wood Street, and there duly filed.

[MrBarnett]

Today, carriage driving is a very posh sport. It's participants still wear aprons, and the reasons given are that it keeps the driver warm and protects his legs from 'soiling'.

Perhaps a carman was easy to spot because he wore a very long apron designed to keep horse crap off his trousers.

[MrBarnett]

I doubt this man ever delivered a pork chop in his life (even though he is a dead ringer for Charles Lechmere):

[harry]

A carman's first duty was to attend to his horse,feed it rub it down etc.So it could be a little messy,hence the need of an apron.

[GUT]

I doubt this man ever delivered a pork chop in his life (even though he is a dead ringer for Charles Lechmere):


[ATTACH]17515[/ATTACH]

But you will notice he has a wrap around his waist (probably a blanket not an apron but serves the same function).

[drstrange169]

The waist apron was the "dress" version.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OdJNZ_xJR_4C&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=box+cloth+driving+apron&source=bl&ots=5le7vBJZvd&sig=oAw5TYno1VWbRkN97wkjbLyW85w&hl=en&ei=gIDqSczUIqSOjAfp_ryeCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=box%20cloth%20driving%20apron&f=false

[Rosella]

IF carmen did load raw meat onto the carts (and we still don't know whether they did at Pickfords) surely they would carry loins, legs etc as modern meat workers do. That is, wrapped in linen or netting coverings and over their shoulders, in which case an apron wouldn't be much use? If that was the case then the apron probably was a bit of a shield against the muck and grime of Victorian streets and against flying horse poo not blood.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gut,

It's called an apron. It's worn by the driver of a carriage in a very traditional sport.

Perhaps Lech. was more worried about blood smears on his midriff than horse-**** on his trousers...

Of course, we have no evidence that Lech. carted meat, but we can be pretty sure that horses relieved themselves in those days as they do now.

Gary

[Barnaby]

Too bad the apron wasn't made of leather.

On the beard issue, one would expect him to change his appearance if he were the killer, which I think was Fish's allusion.

[Errata]

Too bad the apron wasn't made of leather.

On the beard issue, one would expect him to change his appearance if he were the killer, which I think was Fish's allusion.

Every time?