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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > Goulston Street Graffito

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  #1161  
Old 05-04-2015, 02:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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According to this though a person who is seen to be attacked and who is dead 5 minutes later is equally as likely to have killed by anyone else other than the attacker.
When you put it like that, of course it appears more suspicious.

But, the time of the assault was given by Schwartz as 12:45, and the time of the discovery given by Diemschitz was 1:00 am.

So she was found dead fifteen minutes later, not five.
And, if it was 1:00 am as Diemschitz passed the corner shop, then we may add another minute or two before he arrived at the yard.

The times given by the medical men do not supercede those given by the witnesses, all the times given are estimates.
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Last edited by Wickerman : 05-04-2015 at 03:16 PM.
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  #1162  
Old 05-04-2015, 03:00 PM
John G John G is offline
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When you put it like that, of course is appears more suspicious.

But, the time of the assault was given by Schwartz as 12:45, and the time of the discovery given by Diemschitz was 1:00 am.

So she was found dead fifteen minutes later, not five.
And, if it was 1:00 am as Diemschitz passed the corner shop, then we may add another minute or two before he arrived at the yard.

The times given by the medical men do not supercede those given by the witnesses, all the times given are estimates.
And, of course, we have numerous sightings of Stride, during the night she was killed, in the company of other possible suspects.
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  #1163  
Old 05-04-2015, 11:59 PM
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When Schwartz says he ran as far as the railway arch, isn't it the case that he would have run past his own house?
Schwartz is likely referencing this well known landmark to point to the general area where he ended up.

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This seems a little odd to me. I mean, if he felt in danger, wouldn't he instinctively regard his own home as a place of refuge?
Also identifying where he lives. Maybe walk around a bit to see if the person is gone? Hence answering the first if we say he went to the arch.
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  #1164  
Old 05-05-2015, 12:02 AM
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When you put it like that, of course it appears more suspicious.

But, the time of the assault was given by Schwartz as 12:45, and the time of the discovery given by Diemschitz was 1:00 am.

So she was found dead fifteen minutes later, not five.
And, if it was 1:00 am as Diemschitz passed the corner shop, then we may add another minute or two before he arrived at the yard.

The times given by the medical men do not supercede those given by the witnesses, all the times given are estimates.
Okay you originally said 5, now 15. All of these times though still capture the time of death or close to it.

We are talking about the same area (literally a few feet). That is an important factor is discounting the 'other' killer hypothesis.
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  #1165  
Old 05-05-2015, 01:15 AM
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And, of course, we have numerous sightings of Stride, during the night she was killed, in the company of other possible suspects.
The fact we have numerous sightings makes an additional and likely final sighting by Schwartz more likely.
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  #1166  
Old 05-05-2015, 01:43 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello J. Thanks.

Not a problem, understandable mistake.

Cheers.
LC
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  #1167  
Old 05-05-2015, 01:48 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default Parsley, sage, rosemary and . . . what's the other one?

Hello Jon. On the other hand, PC Lamb saith:

"Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder.""

Now IF Lamb is correct, then they must have started from the club around 12.55. And IF Dimshits is speaking truly about discovery, prodding, going into the club, etc. it's beginning to look like he discovered the body around 12.50.

Cheers.
LC
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  #1168  
Old 05-05-2015, 04:55 AM
John G John G is offline
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Hello Jon. On the other hand, PC Lamb saith:

"Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder.""

Now IF Lamb is correct, then they must have started from the club around 12.55. And IF Dimshits is speaking truly about discovery, prodding, going into the club, etc. it's beginning to look like he discovered the body around 12.50.

Cheers.
LC
Hello Lynn,

It is worth mentioning the fact that PC lamb had no watch. However, Dr Blackwell did have a watch and noted the time upon arrival: 1:16am. And PC Lamb stated: "Dr Blackwell was the first doctor to arrive; he came ten or twelve minutes after myself, but I had no watch with me."

That of course suggests that he arrived between 1:04 and 1:06. If we allow for 5 minutes for him to get there-he was on duty between Christian Street and Batty Street when alerted- then he must have been notified around 1:00am or just after (Lamb said that he passed the top of Berner Street 6 or 7 minutes earlier, so if he was running he could presumably cover the distance a lot quicker.)

Morris Eagle was one of the men, the other being Kozebrodsky, who came back with PC Lamb. Eagle said that he saw Louis D running off just as he arrived in the Yard to check the body. As Eagle set off more or less straight away, in the opposite direction, that would suggest the time was around 12:55 or possibly slightly later. As Louis D didn't set off to get police assistance straight away, but ran into the club first, that would indicate that he discovered the body at about 12:50, which means your probably right!

However, if Lamb arrived at the Yard at the later time of 1:06, setting off at say 1:03, then I suppose it's possible that Eagle, at a push, could have left the Yard as late as 1:00am. Nonetheless, as Louis D had already gone for help at this time, after first going into the club before returning to examine the body, it would still indicate that Louis D must have discovered the body no latter than, say, 12:55.
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  #1169  
Old 05-05-2015, 05:11 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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And, of course, we have numerous sightings of Stride, during the night she was killed, in the company of other possible suspects.
Hi John
Just to clarify that prostitutes of the same ilk as Stride would have been desperate to earn money. That desperation would have taken them to the point of propositioning almost every man that they met.

It is therefore wrong for researchers to assume that the last person seen talking to her or with her was the killer.

Following the known altercation who is to say that she didn't continue to proposition men?

After all from a prostitutes perspective where could you go at that time of the night and expect to meet a large group of men, half drunk with money in their pockets ?

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  #1170  
Old 05-05-2015, 05:24 AM
John G John G is offline
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Hi John
Just to clarify that prostitutes of the same ilk as Stride would have been desperate to earn money. That desperation would have taken them to the point of propositioning almost every man that they met.

It is therefore wrong for researchers to assume that the last person seen talking to her or with her was the killer.

Following the known altercation who is to say that she didn't continue to proposition men?

After all from a prostitutes perspective where could you go at that time of the night and expect to meet a large group of men, half drunk with money in their pockets ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Hello Trevor,

Yes I agree. I think a number of scenarios are possible. I have speculated before that she may have gone to the club to meet someone, Lave for example, in which case he becomes a suspect. Or that one of the men she was seen with earlier, such as James Brown's suspect, may have followed her after unsuccessfully persuading Stride to go with him. And, if she did go to the club to meet someone, she could have arrived late and missed the rendezvous, thereby deciding to try the side door. Her killer might then have simply followed her down the passage.

Nonetheless, Schwartz's evidence is so grossly incompatible with the cachous problem, discussed at length on this thread, I simply can't see BS man, assuming he even existed, being her killer.
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