saving Liz Stride

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Liz may or may not have been soliciting that night. We simply don't know. It might not have been her intention when starting the evening but we don't know if that changed later on. And even if she was not actively soliciting, we don't know what her reaction would have been had she been approached by a potential customer late in the evening.

Perhaps the cachous were given to her by one of her male companions earlier in the evening.

I am assuming that you disagree with Sugden when it comes to the knife being the same one that killed Polly.

c.d.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Lynn,

1. Explaining whether or not Liz was "on duty" or not.

Yes. That much is obvious.

2. What was her role vis-a-vis the man or men with whom she was purportedly seen that night?

Her role was prostitute.

3. What was the significance, if any, of Schwartz's story?

It's highly significant, because he saw the victim, whom he later identified at the mortuary, struggling with the man who killed her.

4. Who was her assailant? Was it "Jack"?

Yes, in my humble opinion.

5. Why was she leaving the yard when killed?

She wasn't. A struggle took place at almost the exact spot where her body was found.

6. Is there a scenario for the cachous in her grasp other than an extremely quick kill?

No. You have it right. It was an extremely quick kill, and she had little time to react, hence the three muffled screams and the cachous still clutched in her hand.

7. If Jack were her assailant, did he carry 2 knives or did he go home to fetch a different knife for Kate?

Yes he was her assailant, and yes he carried two knives. At least.

Again, thank you,

Roy

[c.d.]

Hi Roy,

The three small screams came when Liz was still in the street not the yard. The lack of screams coming from the yard would also indicate a quick kill as you say.

c.d.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi cd,

In saying screams I answered a question that wasn't asked. The cachous was the question. In mortal fear she grasped them tightly.

Roy

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

It is possible to go on a date and have that date not end in murder. Additionally, it is also possible to be jealous without taking out your trusty knife and cutting someone's throat.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Annie

Hello Curious. I meant points. AF is exempted.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

Liz in drag

Hello Roy.

"A struggle took place at almost the exact spot where her body was found."

This, as I see it, is the main problem. She needs to be 10 feet further west before she dies. Could Jack have dragged her 10 feet after the kill? Possibly?

And if the cachous are still in her hand, he'd need to enclose her hand in his as he drags.

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

But couldn't that also be a reason for non mutilation? Maybe in the struggle the killer didn't realize how close to the gate he had gotten.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

cachous again

Hello CD. OK. But when do the cachous come into play?

The best.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I am not really getting your point here. I am afraid you are going to have to spell it out for me.

c.d.

[Archaic]

I'm a little confused about some of the previous posts too.

Isn't the "struggle" being referred to the one witnessed by Schwartz which occurred outside the gates, in the vicinity of the sidewalk & roadway?

And isn't that also the location where Liz was knocked down and gave "3 screams, not very loud"?

I think Lynn is asking how Liz then ended up dead at a position well within the gates, in Dutfield's Yard proper, still clutching cachous in her hand.
She must have been killed on the spot where she was found, not killed on the sidewalk and dragged there, so there is a gap in the action that has not been accounted for.

Either Liz passed through the gates into the dark yard with the killer of her own volition, or when Schwartz fled the killer somehow physically manhandled her, stifling her cries while simultaneously forcing her back into the yard and quickly stabbing her- but there are no eyewitnesses to this, so it's all conjecture.

The killer would have had to already have his knife out in order to manage this so swiftly, and it's hard to understand how he could have propelled Liz all the way into the yard in such a way that she could have been left lying there dead but still holding the package of cachous in her hand.

I suppose it's not impossible, but it's a more complicated scenario.

Best regards, Archaic

[Roy Corduroy]

Isn't the "struggle" being referred to the one witnessed by Schwartz which occurred outside the gates, in the vicinity of the sidewalk & roadway?

And isn't that also the location where Liz was knocked down and gave "3 screams, not very loud"?

Hi Archy, yes that's it. Here is the statement:

...having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop and speak to a woman, who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not loudly.

I think Lynn is asking how Liz then ended up dead at a position well within the gates, in Dutfield's Yard proper, still clutching cachous in her hand.
She must have been killed on the spot where she was found, not killed on the sidewalk and dragged there, so there is a gap in the action that has not been accounted for.

Yes there is a gap because Schwartz ran away as the man called out Lipski.

Either Liz passed through the gates into the dark yard with the killer of her own volition, or when Schwartz fled the killer somehow physically manhandled her, stifling her cries while simultaneously forcing her back into the yard and quickly stabbing her- but there are no eyewitnesses to this, so it's all conjecture.

Right, Schwartz did not see this part.

The killer would have had to already have his knife out in order to manage this so swiftly, and it's hard to understand how he could have propelled Liz all the way into the yard in such a way that she could have been left lying there dead but still holding the package of cachous in her hand.

I suppose it's not impossible, but it's a more complicated scenario.

She was in mortal fear, clutching the cachous tightly. I don't find it complicated at all. What I find complicated is taking this one item, the cachous in her hand, and using it to suggest a scenario other than Schwartz saw her struggle with a man right there at the entrance to the yard, that said man overpowered her and murdered her just inside the yard, and there her body lay to be discovered in the dark. Still clutching the cashous, as she did when she was attacked.

Out of all the murders of women in history, this one exclusively is treated in a special way by some folks, that the clutching of an item in the hand means something other than what it normally does, that is, the woman was in mortal danger. Frankly I've never heard this argument used anywhere but here.

Roy

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello CD. I wonder when and how Liz went for the cachous. I don't think she took them out DURING any altercation. Nor was it BEFORE an altercation. In either case they would be spilled.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

break time

Hello Archaic.

"Either Liz passed through the gates into the dark yard with the killer of her own volition, or when Schwartz fled the killer somehow physically manhandled her, stifling her cries while simultaneously forcing her back into the yard and quickly stabbing her"

Yes. That is the point. And, given body placement, she was coming out again.

It is hard to imagine Liz calling a halt to the action so that she can take out the cachous.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

10 feet

Hello Roy. "Just inside the yard" turns out to be 9 feet. Liz's body was found 3 yards (9 feet) from the gates--measured from her feet. Since there was 18 feet of passageway from door to gates, and given she was just over 5 feet, her head must have been between 4 and 5 feet from the kitchen door.

Now, how did Liz get from just outside the gates of the yard to 9 feet from the gates, a total of about 10 feet?

A normal answer: Jack, whilst wrestling with her, chased her into the yard. This would be the most reasonable answer, if not for those cachous. (Indeed, if not for those, none of us, I daresay, would have given any of this a second thought. I know I would not.) But since they are in her grasp, either she held on to them all during the fisticuffs, or she was felled where she stood WHEN THEY FIRST CAME INTO HER HAND. This is what the medical examiners hypothesized. But if that is correct, she was exiting the yard because she was facing the gates.

I was a nice, normal pro-Liz person UNTIL I endeavoured to reconstruct the event. It just did not fit.

Now, try either the reconstruction offered by Perry Mason or Fisherman. See the difference?

The best.
LC