Is it not possible that some poor local woman may have accidentally stumbled upon Annie Chapman's corpse, felt about it in the dark for a moment, said "no!" in reaction to this, then took flight in a panic?
This is also my view DD .. ( Or close to it )
. No, not possible as it was not dark when she was killed. It was AFTER sun up.
We cannot know that as a fact Lynn . There is an equally convincing argument that Annie was long dead by then .
A simple modus tollens might disabuse you of this notion.
Besides, why could they not have been engaged in conversation at least part of that time?
My point being lynn , time was of the essence , he could have been disturbed at any moment (ie) Cadosch , outhouses (ect) i really don't see our man as a Procrastinating chatty Killer , All his conversation would have been done before he gets to the kill site .
How do we know that "No" was the last word of the conversation between Ripper and victim, (if it was Annie and JTR in the back yard of no. 29?) It was the last word Cadosch heard as he was going indoors, but there could have been another couple of minutes of conversation for all we know!
Like I said to Lynn , I don't think he would .
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:20am Cadoche went into the backyard of #27. Upon his return to the house, he heard voices quite close to him. Of which, he could only make out the word "No."
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 5:25am Sun rose
SAT, SEP 8, 1888 c.5:25am Cadoche re-entered his backyard and heard a fall against the fence. Cadoche returned to the house and prepared to leave for work.
Yes , but he hears the "Fall against the fence" upon leaving the outhouse for the second time
It would also depend on how it was spoken. Was it an exclamation or not?
Or maybe even the word itself Harry ! "No" or "Know" ... (ie) Check her pockets she wont "Know" !!
"On Saturday, Sept. 8, I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think. As I returned towards the back door I heard a voice say "No" just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of No. 29. I, however, cannot say on which side it came from. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back I heard a sort of a fall against the fence which divides my yard from that of 29. It seemed as if something touched the fence suddenly".
I would think that the "fall" against the fence in #29 solidifies the notion that what he heard originally also came from #29, and when considering the timing of Annies discovery and the time Cadosche hears these sounds its virtually impossible that IF he honestly testified, the sounds were not of Annie and her killer.
Its why I contend Mrs Long did not see Annie, and why I contend that the doctors were inaccurate with their estimates of how long she had lain there. Richardson would have had to have seen a body there if it was at around 4:45, and he didn't.
And to imagine that the sounds were from someone or a couple preceding Annie into the yard, I need only remind us of the discovery time. All that was done to Annie must have taken nearly a quarter to a half hour...even Phillips said as much.
Thanks for posting that Michael
Well, since we can see the words now from the witness himself, I lean towards that the "no" was from Chapman while speaking and not "No!" exclamation at being attacked. And since he described the sound as something "falling" against the fence-I think it was probably her body brushing/hitting/bumping the fence as she was lowered to the ground.
But my what active imaginations some have on here!
__________________ "Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
Re Post #9 "... The other possibility is that it Wasn't Annie that he heard say "no" but rather someone else who had gone there for the same purpose and after that couple left Chapman and Jack arrived."
The 5 to 6 minute interval involved makes that a fairly remote possibility, wouldn't you say? Although there is the issue of Mrs Long's evidence that she saw (probably) Annie in the street with a man at 5:30.
Exactly, if we accept the evidence we have instead of ignoring the bits that don't suit and putting strange interpretations on other it must be on the cards.
G U T
There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
I lean towards that the "no" was from Chapman while speaking and not "No!" exclamation at being attacked.
I'm not convinced that it was Chapman that he heard, but I strongly believe that the 'no' (or possibly 'know') was said in a conversational tone, simply due to the fact that he doesn't characterize the tone of voice in any way. Had he heard an exclamation, I think he'd have said so.
The thing about Mrs Long, which has been pointed out many times, if Cadosche heard any woman say anything from the yard in #29 at around 5:15-5:20, then Mrs Long is obviously incorrect about seeing Annie in the street around 5:30. The woman would have to have been Annie if she is found before 6am. Which she was.
From Mrs Long; "On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street. I passed 29, Hanbury-street."
That quote puts Mrs Longs sighting sometime between 5:15 and 5:30, when Cadosch heard what he heard during that same time. She cant be in both places.