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  #81  
Old 04-01-2016, 11:33 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Mitre Square doesn't fit my definition of a cul-de-sac and, as a matter of English (which is ironic considering the Frenchness of the term) I don't think it is. Here's how the Oxford English Dictionary describes a cul-de-sac:

"A street, lane, or passage closed at one end, a blind alley; a place having no outlet except by the entrance."

A square, however, is something different:

"An open space or area (approximately quadrilateral and rectangular) in a town or city, enclosed by buildings or dwelling-houses, esp. of a superior or residential kind, freq. containing a garden or laid out with trees, etc.; more generally, any open space resembling this, esp. one formed at the meeting or intersection of streets; (also) the group of houses surrounding an area of this kind."

Also, defining a square as a cul-de-sac because vehicles can't exit seems rather arbitrary to me. An open square with multiple exits for pedestrians but a cul-de-sac for vehicles? I don't think so really.

David

you may recall a while back I had a debate if Mitre Square was a yard or a square.

I agree with you, it is very hard to call it a cul-de.sac.

The report being discussed is not first hand , there is much debate over the authenticity if any of said report.
None of the sites fit the description.

However it is not impossible that there is a kernel of truth at the bottom of the report, that is someone saw someone close to a murder site a matter of seconds before a body was discovered. in such a case the description of the site, as well as the action may be greatly changed from what was originally said, if anything was that is.

Steve
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  #82  
Old 04-01-2016, 11:39 AM
Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac is offline
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Although there were two entries into the place where McKenzie was killed it does seem to be the best bet, considering it was "just behind the Whitechapel Road" and Stephen White saw someone with illuminous eyes.

I would say though it would only take someone to not know the scene very well to be mistaken, or they may have a certain idea of what a cul-de-sac is that doesn't tally with a dictionary.

McKenzie is problematic if you think he was tucked away in an asylum by that point, but I tend to think that he killed more than 5.
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  #83  
Old 04-01-2016, 11:49 AM
Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Mitre Square doesn't fit my definition of a cul-de-sac and, as a matter of English (which is ironic considering the Frenchness of the term) I don't think it is. Here's how the Oxford English Dictionary describes a cul-de-sac:

"A street, lane, or passage closed at one end, a blind alley; a place having no outlet except by the entrance."

A square, however, is something different:

"An open space or area (approximately quadrilateral and rectangular) in a town or city, enclosed by buildings or dwelling-houses, esp. of a superior or residential kind, freq. containing a garden or laid out with trees, etc.; more generally, any open space resembling this, esp. one formed at the meeting or intersection of streets; (also) the group of houses surrounding an area of this kind."

Also, defining a square as a cul-de-sac because vehicles can't exit seems rather arbitrary to me. An open square with multiple exits for pedestrians but a cul-de-sac for vehicles? I don't think so really.
I agree with that.

By definition a through road for a pedestrian means it isn't a cul-de-sac.
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  #84  
Old 04-01-2016, 11:52 AM
Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac is offline
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Originally Posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
I agree with that.

By definition a through road for a pedestrian means it isn't a cul-de-sac.
The other possibility is that Castle Alley was termed a cul-de-sac because they had people blocking one of the entries.
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  #85  
Old 04-01-2016, 04:32 PM
Billiou Billiou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.Brett View Post
Hi Billou!



You might be interested in:

July 1888 (!)

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/foru...now-in-london/

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/22806.html

http://booty.org.uk/booty.weather/climate/1850_1899.htm

July 1889:

Temperature July 1889: Lowest values occurred between the 8th and 11th over the western parts of the kingdom and between the 17th and 19th in the most other places...

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/c/c/Jul1889.pdf

It is quite possible that there were some "bitter cold nights" in July 1888 and 1889.

Best Regards,

Karsten.
It also says the mean was lower than the average for July... by one or two degrees over the greater part of England..... most other places but at several of the eastern and southern stations the lowest readings were observed on the 23rd or 24th....

Yes, quite possibly there were some cold nights in July 1889 and without actual known temperatures in London at the time it will remain debatable.
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  #86  
Old 04-01-2016, 07:50 PM
Billiou Billiou is offline
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But then again, I suppose the most telling part of the "report" is:

"The mystery, however, that baffled the police more than anything was how the murderer and the victim managed to get into the alley under the eyes of the watching police. It was clear that the couple had not been in any of the houses, and they were not known to any of the residents. Therefore they must have passed into the alley from the Whitechapel Road, and the two police officers were positive that in the four hours of their vigil not a soul had entered the alley. White had his own suspicions regarding the truth of this declaration, and his suspicions were shared by Sir Robert Anderson, who afterwards in comparing notes with White, expressed the opinion that the murderer and his victim had entered the close during the temporary absence of the two watching policeman. The men afterwards admitted that they had gone away for not more than a minute. It was a very short absence undoubtedly, but it was long enough to give the murderer time to walk into the alley with his victim".

This, I think, can only be Castle Alley.....

And as there were houses in the alley, someone coming out of the alley wouldn't have been immediately suspicious, not until McKenzie was found. It wasn't until after they questioned residents did they realise that the couple must have entered from Whitechapel.

I'm wondering, the map I've been referring to is the 1894 Ordinance map of Whitechapel. Do we know if Castle Alley was a throughway to Old Castle Street in 1888?
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  #87  
Old 04-01-2016, 08:51 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billiou View Post
Do we know if Castle Alley was a throughway to Old Castle Street in 1888?
Yes, it was.
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