Martha Tabram--First In The Series

[Mitch Rowe]

You cant just assume that she was...

And why not? Ive heard many of what I call totally irrational decisions concerning the exclusion of Stride and MJK from the C5.

[Sam Flynn]

And why not? Ive heard many of what I call totally irrational decisions concerning the exclusion of Stride and MJK from the C5.

At least those two had their throats cut.

[Stewart P Evans]

Whether or not...

Whether or not Tabram was the first of the series is, and always will be, merely a matter of opinion, be that informed or otherwise.

[Sam Flynn]

Whether or not Tabram was the first of the series is, and always will be, merely a matter of opinion, be that informed or otherwise.

Very true, Stewart - however, it is where those opinions (on either side) are informed by questionable reasoning, or where desperate arguments are advanced to support a hard-wired belief, that issues arise. The same applies to many other aspects of the case, and not just along the victim/suspect axis.

[Stewart P Evans]

Specious

Very true, Stewart - however, it is where those opinions (on either side) are informed by questionable reasoning, or where desperate arguments are advanced to support a hard-wired belief, that issues arise. The same applies to many other aspects of the case, and not just along the victim/suspect axis.

You are telling me??? I am aware of the questions involved it's just that I don't go in for interminable argument and specious debate. If someone is determined to believe something - let them believe it.

[Sam Flynn]

You are telling me???

No, just a general observation that expanded on a point that you made, Stewart.

As for the rest, I clearly don't have the resolve you possess in being able to avoid commenting on specious argumentation, but I guess it's just one of my many failings.

Sorry.

[Stewart P Evans]

Whatever

No, just a general observation that expanded on a point that you made, Stewart.
As for the rest, I clearly don't have the resolve you possess in being able to avoid commenting on specious argumentation, but I guess it's just one of my many failings.
Sorry.

No, you must do whatever you wish, I merely stand back and admire your stamina.

[Ben]

But even that would boil down to a matter of opinion, Gareth.

If both sides think the other is guilty of specious reasonining, and both are prepared to comment on it, it'll still result in an interminable debate!

Best regards,
Ben

[Chava]

Now we've got that off our chests, Gareth, please allow those of us who think Tabram might have been a Ripper victim to discuss that here. There's another thread where you can tell us how dumb we are.

Getting back to the matter in hand, I was reading the account of the inquest in the East London Advertiser. According to Killeen, Tabram's dress was disordered--which you'd expect from such a violent attack--and the bosom of the dress was torn away. Which I wouldn't necessarily expect from such a violent attack. Why would he tear the top of the dress away from the body and what was he after? Given that the skirts were also pulled up, is it possible that he was disturbed? By George Crow, who came up the stair around 3.30 am. The time of death is late per the PM, but not egregiously so. The landing is dark after 11.00 pm, so if he heard someone coming up the stairs, he might be able to run up and out of the way.

The torn dress and pulled-up skirts suggest to me that he may well have been thinking of ripping the poor woman up, but didn't get the chance to do that. He runs out of the building and disappears into Commercial Street. Which, by the way, is where I am sure he picked her up. All the other victims with the exception of Eddowes are found roughly the same distance from major East End thoroughfares as Tabram. Chapman and Kelly off Commercial Street. Nicholls off Whitechapel Road,. Stride off Commercial Road. Now there are an awful lot of women working those streets, and taking their punters off to alleyways close by. But it does occur to me that he never goes too far from a busy street, so that he can disappear quickly once he's done his thing.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

According to Killeen, Tabram's dress was disordered--which you'd expect from such a violent attack--and the bosom of the dress was torn away. Which I wouldn't necessarily expect from such a violent attack..

Why not? After all, the disordered clothing could easily be a result of that perpetrator and victim had intended to engage in sex (after all, tabram was a prostitute) but it could also - like the torn dress (if that account is true) be a result of the killer getting better access when he did the stabbing.
Such handling of the clothing also furtgher supports the psyhology of a frenzied killer, who hardly would treat the clothing in a neat manner while perpetraing his crime. In fact, considering the fierceness of the attack, it would be incredibly strange if the clothing were in neat order.

The torn dress and pulled-up skirts suggest to me that he may well have been thinking of ripping the poor woman up, but didn't get the chance to do that.

So why did he waste time by stabbing her 39 times?

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Now we've got that off our chests, Gareth, please allow those of us who think Tabram might have been a Ripper victim to discuss that here.

I think she might have been a Ripper victim too, Chava - it's just that I'm disinclined to leap to untenable conclusions in order to "strengthen" my opinion in that regard. There are - unequivocally - fundamental differences between Tabram's manner of death and the subsequent Ripper murders. I simply accept those differences for what they are.

Enjoy the rest of the discussion.