39 stabs - a frenzy?

[harry]

We of course,have a different understanding of what happened in Whitechapel in that period of time.We begin with the knowledge that there were a series of seemingly connected murders,of which Tabram is thought by some to have been part.Killeen,without knowledge of what was to follow,could only treat Tabram as a singular case,and while each succeeding case might also be expected to be treated as such,it seems likely that as murder followed murder,medical, police,and public opinion was affected by what had gone before.
That Killeen speaks of two different weapons is a cause for puzzlement.When and why did the change in weapons take place,and why for just the one penetration.It seems unlikely to have been the first stabbing blow,and hard to visualise it as being the last.I would hold to a belief that there was indeed only one weapon,and that Killeen erred in that one instance,if his opinion of a Penknife being used was wrong.

[Fisherman]

Two questions, Harry, if I may:

1. "I would hold to a belief that there was indeed only one weapon,and that Killeen erred in that one instance,if his opinion of a Penknife being used was wrong"

What would have prompted Killeen to throw forward the pen-knife suggestion? What factors would have been involved?

2. "It seems unlikely to have been the first stabbing blow,and hard to visualise it as being the last"

What possible grounds do we have to bolster such assumptions? Why must it have been in the range of stabs number 2-38?

I agree wholeheartedly on what you say about the time schedule involved. If Tabram had been the last victim, her post-mortem would have been conducted with another agenda altogether, and it is something that we must keep in mind!

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[DVV]

We of course,have a different understanding of what happened in Whitechapel in that period of time.We begin with the knowledge that there were a series of seemingly connected murders,of which Tabram is thought by some to have been part.Killeen,without knowledge of what was to follow,could only treat Tabram as a singular case,and while each succeeding case might also be expected to be treated as such,it seems likely that as murder followed murder,medical, police,and public opinion was affected by what had gone before.
That Killeen speaks of two different weapons is a cause for puzzlement.When and why did the change in weapons take place,and why for just the one penetration.It seems unlikely to have been the first stabbing blow,and hard to visualise it as being the last.I would hold to a belief that there was indeed only one weapon,and that Killeen erred in that one instance,if his opinion of a Penknife being used was wrong.

Agreed!

[Shelley]

Hi Michael,
I tend to disagree, here. When Martha was killed, she was not considered a victim if the "Whitechapel murderer", not at all... Police followed the trail of the soldiers, and besides, there was the theory of "gangsters".
Even the figure of Leather Apron, as described by The Star in early September, was a mix of a "lone mad killer" and a gangster who was "blackmailing prostitutes".
About the "2 distinct blades", we can't take for granted that Killeen's suggestion was based on the "length and width of penetration". It could have been because Killeen didn't thought a "penknife" was able to pierce the chestbone. And that would explain why Killeen wasn't flat at all: he said he thought that the wound couldn't have been made by what he thought to be a penknife.

Amitiés,
David

I posted some years ago with info from a pathologist, because of the age of Martha in her forties the breast-bone is harder to cut, the breat-bone is softer in younger women of thier twenties, i believe the bone starts to harden more from around 28 yrs of age, so Yes Killeen would be right in saying that it could not have been done with a pen-knife, so a bayonet type weapon could have been used.

[Shelley]

It was horrible that Tabram died at any hands with such vicious a killing with 39 frenzied stabbings. I don't see that this would have been a premeditated attack, at one time i did with a slip, but i'm sure now it that it wasn't.

[perrymason]

I believe one essential "point" is missing in the discussions here regarding the term pen-knife. Whether he was precisely describing the wound as such, I doubt...but one characteristic of a pen or pocket knife is that it folds.

To stab directly into bone one would take a considerable risk of having the knife collapse and lop off a finger tip of the assailant. Folding knives are not meant to be used when applying pressure and pushing directly on the tip of the blade. Anyone using a pen-knife that way would understand that risk. Most will "fold under the pressure".

Wonder if thats where that line came from?

Its 2 weapons folks, with one larger fixed blade.....clearly. Doesnt make sense on a murder that could easily have been committed by one man...but there it is anyway. Its not disputable.

Best regards all.

[Shelley]

David!

Please let me walk you through this once more, and try to point out where you would be wrong!

You write:

"we can't take for granted that Killeen's suggestion was based on the "length and width of penetration"

Right! What you are saying here is that we cannot be sure that the hole in the chest differed from the others, and thus it could have been the same weapon. You point out that Killeens words can be interpreted as only saying that a pen-knife would be too frail to pierce the sternum.

If we accept this thesis of yours, David, we are left with a wound in the chest that was similar to the others, but which would have been inflicted by a less frail material than the others.

What I fail to see here, David, is why Killeen would have asserted what he did if the holes in Tabram were all comparable. Why would he speak of two blades in such a case?

Of course it was a question of blade width and thickness, David. No other explanation will take flight, as you will surely realize.

Actually, Killeens statement that the blade from the other wounds would break at the sternum was nothing but an educated guess: he knew the width of the blade, he knew what thickness such a blade normally is (the wounds would have contracted somewhat, making an exact assessment difficult on that particular point), and he simply concluded that the type of blade used normally is a frail one.
It´s not as he could tell the type of steel it was made of. What he concluded in all his studies of the different blades used, he concluded from the width and thickness and length traces left.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

With blades, a pen-knife type would be folding, so couldn't be used on the sternum ( which was harder to pierce given Tabram's age as well) they can't tell what type of knife could be have been used, only through depth and how sturdy it could be under a thrust through the sternum bone to the heart. So it is definatley a 2 weapon situation as regards Tabram.