Was JtR a necrophile?

[John G]

John this is an interesting bit about the killer expecting a police to find it. Do you think torso would watch at a distance to see the reaction? Here is a quote from pc Bennett who discovered the pinchin torso which could fit with the killer approaching the person who finds the body under the guise as a helpful passerbyer:
Knowing it was a lifeless body I waited a minute or two. A man came along with a broom on his shoulder. I said to him, "You might go and fetch my mate at the corner." He replied, "What's on, governor?" I answered, "Tell him I have got a job on. Make haste." The man then went up Backchurch-lane towards the adjoining beat. I next saw two constables running towards me
....


[Coroner]Did you see any one with a bundle? - No, Sir. I did not see a costermonger's cart about. I saw a barrow in Spildts-street. It had a board on it, and had been there the whole time I was on duty. I saw no other cart or vehicle about, with the exception of those coming out of Christian-street, which belonged to Messrs. Fairclough. These started soon after 4 o'clock in the morning. I did not see any of these come down Pinchin-street. These vans went in all directions, and I can't say if any of them went into Cable-street.

Hi Rocky,

Yes, I think it's perfectly possible that the killer could have waited to watch the police's reaction. However, according to Trow it was PC Pennett who found the Pinchin Torso. Apparently he did ask a passing street cleaner to find a constable, while he followed procedure by staying with the body, however he decided he couldn't wait for that so blew his whistle instead; this resulted in two other officers arriving.

What is interesting is that two drunk men were found asleep in the archway next to the body, and both insisted there was was no body there when they arrived! This seems to be another macabre joke played by the killer. And, just like the Tottenham Court Torso, deposited during a police relief, it was a risk that the killer didn't need to take. He was playing games and clearly getting a thrill out of it!

[RockySullivan]

Hi john, was interesting is the man passed by after PC waited a moment and then he approaches. As if he could've been watching from a distance. Apparently there is no follow up so he may have just disappeared up back church lane. By simply having a broom and approaching the PC he's allowed to leave seen without questions. Unlike the drunken dossiers he's never identified. If he was the killer he was hiding in plain sight. Since the man was in the vicinity of a dumped torso he should have been thoroughly investigated. Of course he could have been an innocent passerbyer but one never knows. Did he fetch a policeman after all? The PC had to blow his whistle so it's possible he did not. When you look at it from the perspective of the killer watching and approaching the PC to see his reaction "what's on governor" was a sinister taunt. Of course like you said the man could be just the first to come along. Knowing the torso killers calculating MO it's not impossible he would approach the PC and say something like this is it?

The mention of the cart I found interesting because it's the only one PC saw in the vicinity but if this man was the killer and he did use the cart to dispose body it's hiding in plain sight again. The man could have returned later and removed his cart and both him and the cart have avoided any suspicion.

[John G]

Hi john, was interesting is the man passed by after PC waited a moment and then he approaches. As if he could've been watching from a distance. Apparently there is no follow up so he may have just disappeared up back church lane. By simply having a broom and approaching the PC he's allowed to leave seen without questions. Unlike the drunken dossiers he's never identified. If he was the killer he was hiding in plain sight. Since the man was in the vicinity of a dumped torso he should have been thoroughly investigated. Of course he could have been an innocent passerbyer but one never knows. Did he fetch a policeman after all? The PC had to blow his whistle so it's possible he did not. When you look at it from the perspective of the killer watching and approaching the PC to see his reaction "what's on governor" was a sinister taunt. Of course like you said the man could be just the first to come along. Knowing the torso killers calculating MO it's not impossible he would approach the PC and say something like this is it?

The mention of the cart I found interesting because it's the only one PC saw in the vicinity but if this man was the killer and he did use the cart to dispose body it's hiding in plain sight again. The man could have returned later and removed his cart and both him and the cart have avoided any suspicion.

Hi Rocky,

Yes, that works for me. And it's clearly coincidental that the "street cleaner" just happened to be passing. And, as your quote suggests, the constable only assumed the man was a street cleaner because he was carrying a broom- a simple, but effective disguise; in fact, presumably if he'd just deposited the Torso, and the heard the approach of a constable, all he had to do was pick up the broom. And clearly not someone that witnesses are likely to pay much attention to as they would naturally assume that he had a good reason to be there. It's also interesting he's never identified as, presumably, bone fide street cleaners would have been employed by the local council, so what happened to him?

[RockySullivan]

What happened indeed John. It's an interesting theory, not my own I'm quite sure I read it on casebook awhile back.

" in the arch, something that appeared to be a bundle. The arch, which was filled with stones belonging to the Whitechapel District Board of Works, led on to a piece of waste ground, on which were three arches abutting onto Pinchin-street."

Maybe a worker from board of works?

[Abby Normal]

Ive never bought that the torso murders were some kind of Burke and Hare or abortion gone wrong killings. Too much exteraneous stuff going on. extra cuts and mutilations, bizarre disposals etc.

They are all the work of a (probable single)serial killer to me, and as Errata stated there seems to be some sort of game going on with the disposal.
Why some in the river, some on the street, in yards and underneath buildings.

Was torso man literally trying to litter London with body parts? Did those specific places have a special meaning for him? Did he think he was poisoning the places where he dumped them or that those place would then be haunted?

Or Was it all random and or for shock value?

The Whitehall torso seems to be a big clue. Underneath a newly built police station. Did he meant for it to be found? And why there? Out of all the places this seems to be the hardest place to get to.

Just thinking out loud.

[John G]

Ive never bought that the torso murders were some kind of Burke and Hare or abortion gone wrong killings. Too much exteraneous stuff going on. extra cuts and mutilations, bizarre disposals etc.

They are all the work of a (probable single)serial killer to me, and as Errata stated there seems to be some sort of game going on with the disposal.
Why some in the river, some on the street, in yards and underneath buildings.

Was torso man literally trying to litter London with body parts? Did those specific places have a special meaning for him? Did he think he was poisoning the places where he dumped them or that those place would then be haunted?

Or Was it all random and or for shock value?

The Whitehall torso seems to be a big clue. Underneath a newly built police station. Did he meant for it to be found? And why there? Out of all the places this seems to be the hardest place to get to.

Just thinking out loud.

Hello Abby,

I think there was little doubt that the Torso Killer, who I also believe was probably unconnected to JtR, was playing a macabre game, which involved taunting the police.

Thus, you have already mentioned the Whitehall Torso, where he clearly took a tremendous risk in depositng the parcel in the pitch black catacombs of the new Scotland Yard building that was under construction.

Then we have the 1884 Tottenham Torso, The Girl with the Rose Tattoo. Not only does this appear to have been a women of refinement, unusual in itself for these types of murders, but the killer took an audacious risk when depositing the lower body parts, taking advantage of a short window of opportunity, and one that appears to have been intended to mock the police. As the Pall Mall Gazette records: "The side walk in front of the house is constantly patrolled by police...it is believed that the parcel was deposited between ten o'clock and ten fifteen, when the police relief takes place." He could have deposited the parts anywhere and at anytime; taking such a risk was completely unnecessary.

Of course, the Pinchin Street Torso was dumped just a few hundred yards from Berner Street, by the arches that Scwartz may well have run to, and the victim may have been killed on the anniversary of Annie Chapman's death. Was he mocking the police for their failure to catch JtR? And as another sick joke he placed the Torso next to two drunks who were sleeping off a hangover! And, as Rocky pointed out, a street cleaner conveniently appears, or at least someone carrying a brush, just as a police officer arrives. Could he have been the killer, considering the fact that he seems to have disappeared from the enquiry?

Finally, we have the body parts thrown into the property of a relative of Mary Shelley, the creator of Frankenstein. Surely another macabre joke.

[jerryd]

Foreman of Sewer Hands

Hi Rocky,

Yes, that works for me. And it's clearly coincidental that the "street cleaner" just happened to be passing.

I posted this a few years ago on a different thread regarding Mitre Square and the Eddowes murder.

The Star, 4 Oct, 1888:

Only Twenty Yards Away.

In connection with the Mitre-square murder, the foreman of the sewer hands who are engaged at Aldgate in sweeping the streets in the early hours of the morning has stated most positively that at the time when the murder is supposed to have been perpetrated he was standing not more than 20 yards away from the spot where the body was found. He never heard any woman's cries for help, nor any sounds of a struggle.

[RockySullivan]

I posted this a few years ago on a different thread regarding Mitre Square and the Eddowes murder.

The Star, 4 Oct, 1888:

Only Twenty Yards Away.

In connection with the Mitre-square murder, the foreman of the sewer hands who are engaged at Aldgate in sweeping the streets in the early hours of the morning has stated most positively that at the time when the murder is supposed to have been perpetrated he was standing not more than 20 yards away from the spot where the body was found. He never heard any woman's cries for help, nor any sounds of a struggle.

Holy ****...literally! I thought I remember reading about a sweeper and eddowes. I could see them using bleach powder for cleaning and it connects to rosellas night soil men theory. Was there ever a name uncovered for this man?

[jerryd]

Holy ****...literally! I thought I remember reading about a sweeper and eddowes. I could see them using bleach powder for cleaning and it connects to rosellas night soil men theory. Was there ever a name uncovered for this man?

Not that I am aware of, Rocky. He wasn't called to the inquest strangely enough.

[jerryd]

Another occupation I've been looking into for the use of lime, limestone, powder, etc is a millstone dresser. John Fairclough, father of Elizabeth Jackson's unborn child, was in this profession. I am not sure if there is any connection between him and Thomas Maurice Fairclough mentioned earlier in this thread (Messrs Fairclough that had carts on Christian Street).

[RockySullivan]

Hi jerry, the fairclough name I noticed but I assumed it was unlikely to be a relative. If it was that would be too easy

[RockySullivan]

I do find fairclough's black eyes suspicious but he story checked out apparently

[RockySullivan]

I posted this a few years ago on a different thread regarding Mitre Square and the Eddowes murder.

The Star, 4 Oct, 1888:

Only Twenty Yards Away.

In connection with the Mitre-square murder, the foreman of the sewer hands who are engaged at Aldgate in sweeping the streets in the early hours of the morning has stated most positively that at the time when the murder is supposed to have been perpetrated he was standing not more than 20 yards away from the spot where the body was found. He never heard any woman's cries for help, nor any sounds of a struggle.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/11130.html

Jerry I wish we had more info on this. If the foreman was so close I imagine he would have workers close by? This question could be very significant : were the sewer hands employed by the whitechapel board of works that owned the land behind the pinchin archway? I think the killer was very likely a sewer hand

[RockySullivan]

THE EAST-END MURDERS.
A TALK WITH THE POLICE.

REWARDS OFFERED.

LETTER FROM THE HOME SECRETARY.

LATEST DETAILS.

Another four-and-twenty hours of excitement and anxiety for the East-end have elapsed, and so far as can be learned absolutely no progress has been made towards the solution of the terrible riddle which all England is looking to the City and Metropolitan Police to solve. Mr. Baxter yesterday morning began his inquest into the Berner-street case, but the evidence added nothing material to the information already in possession of the public, and, though one or two arrests have been made, up till a late hour last night nothing important had come of them. "We attach no importance to any of them," said a responsible police officer last evening. "They have been merely cases in which inquiry seemed desirable, but we think little of them. We have been able to make no important arrests." "You have had no doubt many suggestions made to you?" it was remarked. "Oh yes, a great many, and some of the papers have made some startling discoveries of important clues, but I am unable to say that the police have at present any knowledge of them." "Have you heard it suggested that the murderer may possibly have managed to elude the observation of the police and to get out of the immediate vicinity of his victim by means of the sewers?" "No," replied the officer, laying down his pen, and settling back in his chair with a look of interest, "you mean that he may have got down a manhole into the sewer and made off underground?" "Yes, that is the idea-not perhaps very feasible, but it may be not totally impossible." "Have you ever been down into the sewers?" was the officer's inquiry. "Ah! Then you know something of the difficulty which would be experienced in getting about underground. Besides, how would he get up again? He would require a key to get down, and he must shut down the grating and the iron flap after him, and even with a key I don't think he could get up again. If he could he would be more likely to be observed creeping up out of a sewer than by walking quietly off through the streets. No," concluded the officer, "I don't think there's much in that notion." The City police expressed pretty much the same opinion.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881002.html

Has anyone looked into a correlation between sewer entrances and the ripper murder locations? It's an interesting that the policeman dismisses somewhat do to the fact that the murderer would have to a key & know his way around. If the murderer was a sewer hand this wouldn't be a problem. I wonder if it was possible to access the whitehall vault thru some type of sewer entrance or if one connected to grounds. The whitehall vault is telling because to me it indicates someone comfortable underground in the dark. I would not be surprised if the vaults connected to a sewer. Another aspect is the thames and it's embankment. Now did the thames embankment have sewer entrances or tunnels? Take a look at this picture of the victoria embankment from 1800's :http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Embankment it's the first photo under transport. This is exactly what I'm picturing. I thought I had read about the pickle jar baby being found in a sewer entrance of the embankment but it may have been another limb. This started a gruesome image in my mind. I am very opinion that a sewer hand is a very good candidate for the murders

[jerryd]

Here is a good thread on the subject Rocky.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1657