Same motive = same killer

[Sam Flynn]

What is that focus that rules out this being one killer?

The torso murder dump-sites are focused in the Thames around Battersea in the West; the Ripper murders are focused on the heart of in-land Whitechapel in the East.

[Fisherman]

I might echo....did you read what I wrote? I didn't mention the dump sites I meant the way that the victims were posed. Completely different.

How do you suppose that the torso killer would be able to pose his victims the same way that the Ripper victims were posed, considering they were cut up in pieces?

I seem to remember that Gareth - who will always go for very economical explanations - is anything but impressed of the idea that the victims WERE posed, but I may be wrong on that score.

[Fisherman]

The torso murder dump-sites are focused in the Thames around Battersea in the West; the Ripper murders are focused on the heart of in-land Whitechapel in the East.

One series comprises dumped victims, the other series holds victims that were left where they fell. If the killer wanted the victims to be found in London, he had to travel west to dump them. Otherwise, he risked that they floated away into much less densely populated areas and possibly disappeared undetected.
He VERY clearly wanted the parts to be discovered, as per Whitehall, as per Battersea Gardens, as per the Shelley estate, as per Pinchin Street. And as per the fact that he wrapped the floated parts in cloth - if he thought that the parts would simply sink and if his aim was to hide them, there would be no call at all for the trademark wrapping - cloth will not help to sink the parts at any rate. Plus he would have known that the parts were found, so if he wanted them to disappear, he should have abstained from the wrapping method in the later cases, right?

So a killer who poses his victims so as to evoke as much reaction as possible in the Ripper cases, and who sees to it that the parts from his dismembered victims float through central London in the Torso cases.

To me, that makes a whole lot of sense.

[jerryd]

If the killer wanted the victims to be found in London, he had to travel west to dump them.

Hi Christer,

That's using a certain carman for the suspect, that is. If the killer lived in the west, he may not have had very far at all to travel.

[RockySullivan]

I might echo....did you read what I wrote? I didn't mention the dump sites I meant the way that the victims were posed. Completely different.

Yes...and how is the pinchin torso posed any differently than Annie Chapman

[RockySullivan]

The torso murder dump-sites are focused in the Thames around Battersea in the West; the Ripper murders are focused on the heart of in-land Whitechapel in the East.

That's not a very strong argument, considering all else that they have in common. Not to mention that one torso victim was dumped blocks from a Ripper murder in Whitechapel in the east ha ha

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

That's using a certain carman for the suspect, that is. If the killer lived in the west, he may not have had very far at all to travel.

I see what you mean, but I was working from the common suggestion that the Ripper was based in Whitechapel or thereabouts and not likely to travel to kill. That is the prevailing idea amongst those who reject a common identity.

I prefer to leave Lechmere out of these discussion, Jerry.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes...and how is the pinchin torso posed any differently than Annie Chapman

Chapman fully clothed skirt raised - Torso covered by a chemise.
Chapman had a head - Torso didn't.
Chapman had legs - Torso didn't.
Chapman legs apart (sexual pose) - Torso no legs.

Chapman posed - Torso dumped.

[Fisherman]

Chapman fully clothed skirt raised - Torso covered by a chemise.
Chapman had a head - Torso didn't.
Chapman had legs - Torso didn't.
Chapman legs apart (sexual pose) - Torso no legs.

Chapman posed - Torso dumped.

Once more, how could the torso killer pose a number of severed parts the way the Ripper posed his victims, Herlock?

Anyway, you are both missing the relevant difference: Chapman was on her back, the torso on it´s chest.

[Sam Flynn]

That's not a very strong argument, considering all else that they have in common.

It's a very strong argument, because it happens to be true. The focus of the torso murders is demonstrably "up-river" from Whitechapel... which isn't even on the river! And there is very, very little that the torso cases have in common with the evisceration murders of Jack the Ripper, if we stick to the facts.

Not to mention that one torso victim was dumped blocks from a Ripper murder in Whitechapel in the east

Indeed, albeit the least convincing Ripper murder. That said, if the Ripper did for Stride, his style was completely different than anything exhibited in the torso cases.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Once more, how could the torso killer pose a number of severed parts the way the Ripper posed his victims, Herlock?

He couldn't and didn't in my opinion.

I was just responding to Rocky who suggesting that the torso was posed in the same way as Chapman (to whom I could also add that the Torso was on its stomach and decomposing)

[RockySullivan]

Chapman fully clothed skirt raised - Torso covered by a chemise.
Chapman had a head - Torso didn't.
Chapman had legs - Torso didn't.
Chapman legs apart (sexual pose) - Torso no legs.

Chapman posed - Torso dumped.

And the torso couldn't have been posed that way? And Chapman's legs couldn't have just been left that way? The only actual difference you've mentioned is that one was dismembered and one wasn't. That's enough to determine they couldn't possibly be the work of the same guy?

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: It's a very strong argument, because it happens to be true. The focus of the torso murders is demonstrably "up-river" from Whitechapel... which isn't even on the river! And there is very, very little that the torso cases have in common with the evisceration murders of Jack the Ripper, if we stick to the facts.

Ripped from ribs to pubes
Abdomen taken away in flaps
Uterus cut out
Rings stolen
Non-sexual organs taken out
Part of the colon taken away
Victim/s engaged in prostitution
Victims not subjected to visible torture
Heart/s taken out

Please explain how that amounts to very, "VERY" little...?

[RockySullivan]

It's a very strong argument, because it happens to be true. The focus of the torso murders is demonstrably "up-river" from Whitechapel... which isn't even on the river! And there is very, very little that the torso cases have in common with the evisceration murders of Jack the Ripper, if we stick to the facts.
Indeed, albeit the least convincing Ripper murder. That said, if the Ripper did for Stride, his style was completely different than anything exhibited in the torso cases.

The example of the torso killer dumping in Whitechapel shows they are active in the same area and overrides any arguments about being too far apart

[Harry D]

As Abby pointed out in the beginning of this thread, the Torso & Ripper series both ostensibly ended in 1889, after a period of downtime. It's one thing to have two separate series of murders that involved mutilation, but it's something else to have this correlation in activity.