Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 16 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 19 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.
Neil, P.C. John: Running towards me without a hat, which raised my suspicions!!! - by The Station Cat 3 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: Scholes of the Yard: The Casebook of a Scotland Yard Detective 1888 to 1924 - by The Station Cat 3 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Harry D 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (28 posts)
Conferences and Meetings: American Jack the Ripper - True Crime Conference, Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018 - (14 posts)
Non-Fiction: Scholes of the Yard: The Casebook of a Scotland Yard Detective 1888 to 1924 - (1 posts)
Neil, P.C. John: Running towards me without a hat, which raised my suspicions!!! - (1 posts)
Non-Fiction: Jack the Poet - (1 posts)
Thompson, Francis: Jack the Poet - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #901  
Old 02-15-2017, 08:58 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
To me, this is one of then oddest suggestions I have ever heard - that I would not believe myself that the carman was guilty. I find it extremely hard to get my head around the suggestion. Why would I make such a thing up...?

We are speaking of a man who was found alone in a dark street, standing quite close to the body of a freshly killed murder victim, who by the press accounts from the inquest beld for many minutes afterwards - something that made the forensic expert Jason Payne-James suggest that he fits the murderers frame very well.

We are speaking of a man who then used another name than the one he otherwise used in authority contacts, and we have only this example - from the murder inquest - of him using this alternative name.

We are speaking of a case where the victims wounds were covered, in sharp contrast to the other Ripper victims - and where there would have been a need to do so for Lechmere if he was the killer.

Last, but not least, we are speaking of a man who according to a serving PC presented a lie, perfectly shaped to take him past the police.

That is a very compelling set of circumstances, no matter how we look at it. He ticks every box there is to tick, if he was the killer.

Why would I NOT believe in his guilt? Because scores of people can come up with innocent alternative explanations? It is the easiest thing in the world! Finding another man who fits the pattern of a killer the way Lechmere does is instead impossible, looking at the case facts.
What is odd exactly? I said that I believe that YOU BELIVE in his guilt. I contrast that with the fact that I do not. It's no slander against you.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #902  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:03 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 976
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
To me, this is one of then oddest suggestions I have ever heard - that I would not believe myself that the carman was guilty. I find it extremely hard to get my head around the suggestion. Why would I make such a thing up...?

We are speaking of a man who was found alone in a dark street, standing quite close to the body of a freshly killed murder victim, who by the press accounts from the inquest beld for many minutes afterwards - something that made the forensic expert Jason Payne-James suggest that he fits the murderers frame very well.

We are speaking of a man who then used another name than the one he otherwise used in authority contacts, and we have only this example - from the murder inquest - of him using this alternative name.

We are speaking of a case where the victims wounds were covered, in sharp contrast to the other Ripper victims - and where there would have been a need to do so for Lechmere if he was the killer.

Last, but not least, we are speaking of a man who according to a serving PC presented a lie, perfectly shaped to take him past the police.

That is a very compelling set of circumstances, no matter how we look at it. He ticks every box there is to tick, if he was the killer.

Why would I NOT believe in his guilt? Because scores of people can come up with innocent alternative explanations? It is the easiest thing in the world! Finding another man who fits the pattern of a killer the way Lechmere does is instead impossible, looking at the case facts.
And I didn't need you to repeat your "evidence" against the man. I know it all. It's convinced you. I believe that. I hasn't convinced me. It hasn't convinced many others. As you say, maybe some day. But not today.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #903  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:04 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
What is odd exactly? I said that I believe that YOU BELIVE in his guilt. I contrast that with the fact that I do not. It's no slander against you.
I know that, Patrick, and I am not blaming you. I am saying that the argument HAS surfaced in the past, making it the strangest thing I ever heard in combination with the theory.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #904  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:09 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
And I didn't need you to repeat your "evidence" against the man. I know it all. It's convinced you. I believe that. I hasn't convinced me. It hasn't convinced many others. As you say, maybe some day. But not today.
I actually thought I did need to post parts of the evidence again, to show that there is a very compelling case. And a very straightforward one, where there is a logical chain of events:

Killing Nichols
Hearing Paul, and realizing that the wounds need to be covered
Leaving the spot
Passing by the police by misinforming about another PC tending to it
Getting drawn back into the case by the Paul interview
Obscuring the identity from those who read the papers

Right or wrong, these details all fit to point a finger at Lechmere. WHether people accept it today or tomorrow is of a minor interest to me.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #905  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:21 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
I'd like to hear more about the torso found "opposite" Lechmere's "childhood home". It sounds like - as you say - an interesting story.
In 1861, Lechmere was eleven years old, and lived together with his stepfather and mother in 13 Thomas Street, soon to be renamed Pinchin Street. The railway arch in which the Pinchin Street torso was found, would have been a few yards to the east and then straight across the narrow street from that address. We are speaking of a distance of about some ten or twelve yards, if I am correct. I believe 13 Thomas Street was the fourth door from the west in the building complex on the northern side of the street - at least if the numbering equalled the one in old Thomas Street.
If I am wrong, Im sure there will be those who can correct me.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #906  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:37 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 1,298
Default

I'd already drafted this, so I won't waste it:

I'm sure you know that in 1861 Charles Lechmere (shown as Charles Cross) was living in Thomas Street, in the area that at that time was known as Tiger Bay.

Thomas Street was later renamed Pinchin Street and by 1888, a large part of it had been demolished to make way for various railway improvements.

However, part of the north side of the street, where according to the 1861 census enumerator's route, the 'Cross' family had lived, was still standing. Although not directly 'opposite' the house where Charles had lived as a child, the 1889 torso was found on what had been the opposite side of Thomas Street, a very short distance from his childhood home.

Fish,

I have a slightly different take on where in Thomas Street the family lived. I know Ed is currently researching the question.

One error I think I did make is in saying that Maria married a younger man. I dont know where I got that from. A bit of fake news doing the rounds of the boards, perhaps.

Gary
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #907  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:54 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 1,298
Default

One thing that would be interesting (for me) to have confirmed is the occupation of old ma Lechmere's father. It looks like 'butler' on the 1872 marriage cert to Joseph Forsdike.

Another interesting little fact to add into the mix. If that was the case, then although it would have been 'below stairs' her upbringing would have been in complete contrast to the years she spent in Tiger Bay, Cable Street and the Ratcliffe Highway.

Just think of the indignity of a butler's daughter selling cat's meat on the corner of Artichoke Hill.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #908  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:18 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
One thing that would be interesting (for me) to have confirmed is the occupation of old ma Lechmere's father. It looks like 'butler' on the 1872 marriage cert to Joseph Forsdike.

Another interesting little fact to add into the mix. If that was the case, then although it would have been 'below stairs' her upbringing would have been in complete contrast to the years she spent in Tiger Bay, Cable Street and the Ratcliffe Highway.

Just think of the indignity of a butler's daughter selling cat's meat on the corner of Artichoke Hill.
Thomas Roulson was indeed a butler, so I take your point. However, if Ma Lechmere was instead a shrewd businesswoman, dealing in horseflesh as a wholesale commodity, her father would perhaps spin a little less in his grave...

Last edited by Fisherman : 02-15-2017 at 10:26 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #909  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:32 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 1,298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Thomas Roulson was indeed a butler, so I take your point. However, if Ma Lechmere was instead a shrewd businesswoman, dealing in horseflesh as a wholesale commodity, her father would perhaps spin a little less in his grave...
Well, some of cat's meat men who roamed the streets made small fortunes, so there was money to be made in that game. But if snobbery was ingrained in her psyche, she may well have resented the cards she had been dealt.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #910  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:38 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Romford
Posts: 1,298
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Thomas Roulson was indeed a butler, so I take your point. However, if Ma Lechmere was instead a shrewd businesswoman, dealing in horseflesh as a wholesale commodity, her father would perhaps spin a little less in his grave...
I almost missed the wholesale bit.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.