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  #11  
Old 08-08-2010, 02:40 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Ruby,

Lewande was walking seperately from Harris and Levy, therefore may not have heard Levys words, if indeed he said them. I say that as Harris did not say he heared Levys words either.

If Levy did say that then it was more as an exclamation upon prostitutes and morality than a show of fear.

If the 3 were heading to their respective homes, Lewande towards Dalston, Levy towards Houndsditch and Harris, Whitechapel. In other words in completely the opposite direction to Mitre Square.

Monty
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2010, 02:56 PM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
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Morris was not responsible for goings-on in Mitre Square. Why would he lie? Really, he has to be considered one of the most trustworthy of all non-witnesses.

Mike
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  #13  
Old 08-08-2010, 03:49 PM
Rubyretro Rubyretro is offline
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[quote=Monty;143136]Ruby,

Quote:
Lewande was walking seperately from Harris and Levy
,

Monty, you are nitpicking !

Casebook , under 'witnesses' groups the three men, giving their timings for passing Mitre Square at exactly the same time; If walking seperately, they were feet apart :

Lawende-
Quote:
Witness who, with Joseph Hyam Levy and Harry Harris, saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage, leading to Mitre Square, at around 1.35 a.m. on the morning of 30 September 1888, about ten minutes before the body of Catherine Eddowes was discovered in Mitre Square
Levy-
Quote:
Witness who, with Joseph Lawende and Harry Harris, saw a man and woman standing at the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage, leading to Mitre Square, at about 1.35 a.m. on the morning of 30 September 1888, about ten minutes before the body of Catherine Eddowes was discovered in Mitre Square.
Harris isn't considered a witness as he didn't testify.

If they were walking seperately, they certainly recognised friendly faces,and must have considered themselves '3' in the street.

The first quote for Levy in my previous Post, is given under the Post for the witness Lawende on Casebook.
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  #14  
Old 08-08-2010, 03:59 PM
Rubyretro Rubyretro is offline
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[
Quote:
QUOTE=The Good Michael;143138]Morris was not responsible for goings-on in Mitre Square. Why would he lie? Really, he has to be considered one of the most trustworthy of all non-witnesses.
Mike -I think that's Phil's original good question ; Given that two people crossing that Square would have made lots of echo-y noise to be heard by
Morris, with his door ajar, how come he said that he didn't hear them ? Especially, as you rightly point out, he wasn't responsible for the comings and goings in the Square, and had no good reason on the face of it to lie.

I STILL think that Phil is right , and this is intriguing..

I would be more inclined to believe him, if he didn't point out himself that he heard the Policeman on his beat..

Last edited by Rubyretro : 08-08-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-08-2010, 11:12 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Ruby,

Nitpicking? If being factual is nitpicking then I stand accused.

Lewande himself states he was seperate from the others. If he, himself, considers that then he, himself, felt he was apart from the others. And if he, himself, was apart from the others then I see it as plausible that he did not hear Levys words (which he never mentions). Also he felt secure enough to walk a little apart from them.

Harris never appeared at inquest but he questions what Lewande saw and what Levy said in a news report. The reason Harris was not called is because he, himself, said he saw nothing untoward. Hardly the response of a man who was in fear.

Phil does raise some interesting points. I hope they are addressed in the context of 1888 and not in 2010.

Regards

Monty
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  #16  
Old 08-08-2010, 11:33 PM
Rubyretro Rubyretro is offline
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Monty -the first quote on Levy's apprehension is given on Casebook, under witnesses, under the post for Lawende.

Casebook itself groups the three men, giving exactly the same timing.

If Lawende saw JtR and the others didn't (or refused to go into details), it must have been a case of seconds difference.

I agree that technically they were one person and two people walking separately ; The fact remains that they were walking in a bunch, feet apart, on the same street, coming from the same place, at the same time, and going in the same direction.

I don't think that it's terribly important !

I still think that that we get the feeling that Mitre Square was a threatening spot -you , yourself pointed out on another thread that it was infamous for being used by prostitutes and their clients- for innocent passers by, who I maintain would be too fearful to cut through the Square at night.

Thus, Morris would not hear alot of traffic through the Square at that time of night, and we might
have expected him to remember a noise.

As far as I know, Kate was the only prostitute at the Square that night; Maybe there were others that I don't know about ? Given her timings, how many clients could she have had ?

Last edited by Rubyretro : 08-08-2010 at 11:38 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-08-2010, 11:40 PM
claire claire is offline
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Thanks, Lynn...the sex bit was the bit I was trying to be decorous and avoid Heheh.

I still don't think that there is something necessarily suspicious in Morris' not hearing (or, better, not registering having heard) people crossing the square. Plenty of times I've missed hearing the postman at the door but heard the milkman (stop it)...maybe I was in the bathroom, maybe just preoccupied with something else. If the postman has a heart attack at the end of my garden path, does that make my not having heard him suspicious? Especially if I confess to hearing the milkman?
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  #18  
Old 08-08-2010, 11:44 PM
claire claire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubyretro View Post
I still think that that we get the feeling that Mitre Square was a threatening spot -you , yourself pointed out on another thread that it was infamous for being used by prostitutes and their clients- for innocent passers by, who I maintain would be too fearful to cut through the Square at night.

Thus, Morris would not hear alot of traffic through the Square at that time of night, and we might
have expected him to remember a noise.
I don't understand your reasoning here, Rubyretro. If it was 'infamous for being used by prostitutes and their clients,' then presumably Morris would get used to not bothering to notice their comings and goings (so to speak). Why, then, is it 'thus, Morris would not hear a lot of traffic'? Or are you saying he wouldn't hear the prostitutes and punters *because* he was used to them, but he might hear other passers-by? How would he differentiate? And how on earth would he be expected to differentiate a prostitute and her murderer who were in the guise of a prostitute and her client? Did they have different footfalls?
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  #19  
Old 08-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Ruby,

Im not arguing the three were not moving as a group, Im questioning if Levy said those words as he is the only person to say he did.

The jurors, and others, reaction of laughter upon hearing what Levy says he said also indicates he was refering to his moral objection rather than his fear.

As for them moving via the square, as I said, they all lived in the opposite direction. They had no reason to enter Mitre Square.

Cheers

Monty
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  #20  
Old 08-09-2010, 10:56 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Hello Neil, Ruby, all

Simon kindly sent me this... and after much perusal... there doesn't seem to have been people around the area...not just Mitre Square...that night..

The Star, Oct 1st 1888. interview with P.C.Watkins

"And when did you pass through the square again?" asked the reporter.

"At about a quarter before two."

"Had you met any person on your rounds?"

"Not a soul."

"Nor heard any noise?"

"Not a sound, but the echo of my own footsteps."

(My emphasis.)

He didn't meet a soul. Not a soul. Nobody. Didn't see anyone, didn't hear anyone..on his rounds...that includes a main thoroughfare or two..does it not? And he didn't meet a soul on his rounds. Plural.

best wishes

Phil
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Last edited by Phil Carter : 08-09-2010 at 11:02 AM. Reason: spelling
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