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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Doctors and Coroners

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  #41  
Old 12-13-2017, 01:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Got rather confused as to which victim was being discussed.

The descending colon taken out of Eddowes would have been cut when extracting the kidney.
Most probably (and/or the uterus).
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  #42  
Old 12-13-2017, 05:04 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Unfortunately, I don't think the other case reports are detailed enough to conclude that this was unique to Eddowes, only that it was uniquely mentioned (and illustrated).
Hi JR

I believe both Nichols and McKenzie had a similarly long gash as Eddowes, although not quite as central to the body as in Eddowes case
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  #43  
Old 12-13-2017, 05:18 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Not something someone skilled enough to create the impression he had medical grade surgical skills would likely do...as was assumed of Annies killer.
Er....that's exactly what Annie's killer DID do - Inquest, Dr Phillips, Echo 19th Sept;
"The large intestine remained in situ, but cut through with a keen incision transversely"

Quote:
The premise that they were looking for a surgically trained man lasted for the first few weeks after Annies murder.
Due mostly to Baxter and his theory. I believe Phillips only ever suggested some knowledge of anatomy, not necessarily human, rather than surgical skill - Echo, same issue;
"Dr. G.B. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, has had another consultation with the police authorities respecting certain theories advanced. There are three points upon which there is agreement - that Annie Chapman was lying dead in the yard at 29 Hanbury street, when John Richardson sat on the steps to cut a piece of leather from his boot, his failure to notice the deceased being explained by the fact that the yard door, when opened, obstructed his view; that the poor creature was murdered in the yard, and not in a house, as had been at one time suggested; and that the person who committed the deed was a man with some knowledge of human or animal anatomy."


Quote:
And the quote that " there were no meaningless cuts" should address the idea that there were any Josh.
Meaningless does not equate to unnecessary.
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  #44  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:28 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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I believe both Nichols and McKenzie had a similarly long gash as Eddowes, although not quite as central to the body as in Eddowes case
Thanks Jon,
Llewellyn's autopsy comments on Nichols' wounds I find confusing and somewhat contradictory, not even mentioning a central wound. But most of the papers agree (seemingly independently) that one wound went from vagina to breastbone. Sadly no reports I am aware of mention whether this wound went around, through or anywhere near the navel, but it sounds pretty central to me.
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  #45  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:48 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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The cut colon segment was from the descending colon on the left of the body. The intestines smeared over with faecal matter were the small intestines which had been pulled out of the body prior to the organs being removed.
I think it included the descending colon, but as that is probably less than a foot long, also included other parts. We know one cut was at or near the Sigmoid Flexure (adjacent to the uterus), two feet from there would be about the centre of the Transverse Colon, which is directly behind the abdominal wall at this point. We know the pancreas (more or less behind the TC) sustained a cut at "the left side of the spinal column" so it's certainly possible that this was collateral from the TC cut, but whether this was deliberate or was itself collateral from the abdominal incisions (as were the stabs to the liver) is debatable. However, Robert's point that the small intestines were smeared with fecal matter does suggest that the TC was at least nicked before they were removed (unless the smearing was deliberate, which seems less likely to me).

So I think the cutting out of the colon section is consistent with both accidental damage and deliberate removal. But at this remove in time, only the killer can say which.
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  #46  
Old 12-13-2017, 06:54 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Thanks Jon,
Llewellyn's autopsy comments on Nichols' wounds I find confusing and somewhat contradictory, not even mentioning a central wound. But most of the papers agree (seemingly independently) that one wound went from vagina to breastbone. Sadly no reports I am aware of mention whether this wound went around, through or anywhere near the navel, but it sounds pretty central to me.
Hi JR

In case you haven`t read it, I recommend Tom Wescott`s dissertation, "Old Wounds -Re-examining the Bucks Row Murder".
I don`t think it will help with the navel thing but it`s worth a gander.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...ld-wounds.html
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  #47  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

1. Er....that's exactly what Annie's killer DID do - Inquest, Dr Phillips, Echo 19th Sept;
"The large intestine remained in situ, but cut through with a keen incision transversely
".

Keen incision is a specific term, nothing of the sort is used with Kates wound descriptions.


2. Due mostly to Baxter and his theory. I believe Phillips only ever suggested some knowledge of anatomy, not necessarily human, rather than surgical skill - Echo, same issue;
"Dr. G.B. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, has had another consultation with the police authorities respecting certain theories advanced. There are three points upon which there is agreement - that Annie Chapman was lying dead in the yard at 29 Hanbury street, when John Richardson sat on the steps to cut a piece of leather from his boot, his failure to notice the deceased being explained by the fact that the yard door, when opened, obstructed his view; that the poor creature was murdered in the yard, and not in a house, as had been at one time suggested; and that
the person who committed the deed was a man with some knowledge of human or animal anatomy."

The fact is that in September, immediately following this murder, inquiries were sent out to medical training facilities and colleges, as well as hospitals....neither of which employ or house butchers.


Meaningless does not equate to unnecessary.

No? The definition of the word does.
Its a fact Jon that they sought medical grade skills in September, no single quote undoes that fact.
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