Martha’s final wound

[Pandora]

It seems apparent that Martha Tabram’s final wound, the one to the sternum, is the one that killed her. It broke through her "chest-bone", and penetrated her heart, killing her instantly.

One theory that is widely believed is that a sailor, with both a pen-knife & a dagger on his person, was responsible for her death. Many people also believe that Martha was an earlier victim of JtR, therefore resulting in some to believe JtR was a sailor. But what if Martha’s killer was JtR, but not a sailor, and did not carry 2 knives around with him on the night in question?

Is it possible that her killer, after a failed attempt on Annie Millwood five & a half months earlier, which had left her alive to potentially ID him, was anxious not to leave another victim alive? And what if the pen-knife, even though it had inflicted many terrible wounds, had not yet killed her even after 38 stabs? If Martha lay unconscious and gurgling in her own blood, I suspect the killer may have had to come up with a plan B.

So if the killer did not have another knife on his person at the time, but lived nearby, is it possible he could have ventured home to get a larger knife or dagger, and then come back to where an unconscious Martha still lay, and inflicted the final stab to the chest, which penetrated her heart?

If he was fearful that there be any chance that she could live long enough to ID him, I think this is a gamble he would take to protect his identity. It was still dark, most people were still asleep, and Martha would have been largely invisible, hidden in the dark as she was, on the first floor landing - so it was a risk to be sure, but a calculated risk.

Is it possible that Martha’s killer lived locally, and after the pen-knife failed to kill her, went home and got a bigger knife to finish her off?

[Tom_Wescott]

It seems apparent that Martha Tabram’s final wound, the one to the sternum, is the one that killed her. It broke through her "chest-bone", and penetrated her heart, killing her instantly.

One theory that is widely believed is that a sailor, with both a pen-knife & a dagger on his person, was responsible for her death. Many people also believe that Martha was an earlier victim of JtR, therefore resulting in some to believe JtR was a sailor. But what if Martha’s killer was JtR, but not a sailor, and did not carry 2 knives around with him on the night in question?

Is it possible that her killer, after a failed attempt on Annie Millwood five & a half months earlier, which had left her alive to potentially ID him, was anxious not to leave another victim alive? And what if the pen-knife, even though it had inflicted many terrible wounds, had not yet killed her even after 38 stabs? If Martha lay unconscious and gurgling in her own blood, I suspect the killer may have had to come up with a plan B.

So if the killer did not have another knife on his person at the time, but lived nearby, is it possible he could have ventured home to get a larger knife or dagger, and then come back to where an unconscious Martha still lay, and inflicted the final stab to the chest, which penetrated her heart?

If he was fearful that there be any chance that she could live long enough to ID him, I think this is a gamble he would take to protect his identity. It was still dark, most people were still asleep, and Martha would have been largely invisible, hidden in the dark as she was, on the first floor landing - so it was a risk to be sure, but a calculated risk.

Is it possible that Martha’s killer lived locally, and after the pen-knife failed to kill her, went home and got a bigger knife to finish her off?

Hi Pandora, you've got good thoughts. I thought of the same thing some time back, namely that he may have lived in George Yard buildings. Tabram was killed just outside the water closets, so all people living on that floor would have occasion to visit that spot. The police investigated and found no suspicion attached to anyone living there BUT if we could ever find a list of the residents at that time it would be worthwhile to see if any got arrested for violent assaults or murders later on. I had my suspicions about the landlord's adult son, but alas, nothing there.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[MrBarnett]

I put these lists together some time ago. They are derived from the electoral registers, so they obviously aren't a complete record of all the residents of George Yard Buildings, but they may be of interest.


George Yard Buildings
Electoral Registers

1888

36, Richard Brown
1, John Bryan
19, John Casey
27, William Chapman
13, William Garbutt
24, Joseph Gladman
33, Robert Hall
18, Thomas Hark
28, John Harris
5, George Harrison
45, John Hayes
14, Francis Hewitt
9, Francis Fisher Hewitt
29, Francis Hewitt jun
29, George Howell
22, Charles Humphries
15, John Johnson
32, Daniel Killinbeck
42, William Lacey
47, Patrick McNeil
46, Thomas Madden
24, Thomas Melville
40, John Reeves
16, Henry Ritson
25, James Sheelan
41, William Shore
43, William Sillitoe
25, James Speelan
2, William Steele
21, Henry Tempest
33, Richard Thall
7, William Winstan
31, William Winter


1889

29, John Baker
4, George Barber
36, Richard Brown
19, John Casey
12, Henry Cooper
35, George Crow
33, Robert Hall
6, Francis Hewitt
9, Francis Hewitt
29, Frank Hewitt Jnr
28, Thomas Hughes
21, William Humphreys
14, George Humphreys
26, Richard Kenrich
32, David Killinbeck
48, William Lacey
46, Thomas Madden
47 & 48, Joseph Marney
24, Matthew Melville
29, John Mitten
37, John Reeves
27, Edward Rice
16, Henry Ritson
2, William Steele
1, Walter Tempest
45, John Watkins
7, William Winstan
31, William Winter

E & O E

[Errata]

It seems apparent that Martha Tabram’s final wound, the one to the sternum, is the one that killed her. It broke through her "chest-bone", and penetrated her heart, killing her instantly.

One theory that is widely believed is that a sailor, with both a pen-knife & a dagger on his person, was responsible for her death. Many people also believe that Martha was an earlier victim of JtR, therefore resulting in some to believe JtR was a sailor. But what if Martha’s killer was JtR, but not a sailor, and did not carry 2 knives around with him on the night in question?

Is it possible that her killer, after a failed attempt on Annie Millwood five & a half months earlier, which had left her alive to potentially ID him, was anxious not to leave another victim alive? And what if the pen-knife, even though it had inflicted many terrible wounds, had not yet killed her even after 38 stabs? If Martha lay unconscious and gurgling in her own blood, I suspect the killer may have had to come up with a plan B.

So if the killer did not have another knife on his person at the time, but lived nearby, is it possible he could have ventured home to get a larger knife or dagger, and then come back to where an unconscious Martha still lay, and inflicted the final stab to the chest, which penetrated her heart?

If he was fearful that there be any chance that she could live long enough to ID him, I think this is a gamble he would take to protect his identity. It was still dark, most people were still asleep, and Martha would have been largely invisible, hidden in the dark as she was, on the first floor landing - so it was a risk to be sure, but a calculated risk.

Is it possible that Martha’s killer lived locally, and after the pen-knife failed to kill her, went home and got a bigger knife to finish her off?

Well, to be clear, the sternum wound was the one that ended her life, but it wasn't the only fatal wound. She had about 7 of those that I know of, and other wounds could have been fatal depending on precise positioning. So she was murdered about a dozen stabs in, she simply hadn't died yet. But she was definitely going to, and quickly. Just not immediately.

I suppose it depended on where he lived, but I don't see her surviving that long with the wounds she had, even without the stab to the heart. Liver stabs are deadly, especially at that point in time. And the lung hits not only compromise breathing, but lungs are super saturated with blood vessels and cause an insane amount of bleeding. Very nearly comparable to a stab in the heart. And the wounds to the stomach mean that hydrochloric acid is splashing her insides, burning her stomach tissue, her lungs and her heart. So even without stabbing the heart, she was dying quickly.

So does he live so close that he can race her death? Given that with the liver and lung wounds alone she was dead in half an hour, and there were other serious wounds as well. Did he live a few doors down from where he attacked her? Could he have gone home and gotten back in under a half hour or less? Was he so ignorant of what death looked like that he honestly thought she was going to live? Or regain consciousness? If he was, then his already rocketing level of skill becomes truly astonishing. Getting from the mutilations done to Nichols to Chapman is extraordinary without a victim or three in between. But to go from not understanding how badly you have damaged another human to the mutilations done to Chapman, that's a whole other level of skill acquisition. An almost impossible one.

[curious4]

The attack on Martha was frenzied - overkill. Could the killer have become frustrated because she (possibly) wasn't quite dead and used the "bayonet" to finally finish her off. I have wondered if the bayonet attack was just the knife being held in a different way and not a pen knife, but a clasp knife.

Best wishes
C4

[Abby Normal]

It seems apparent that Martha Tabram’s final wound, the one to the sternum, is the one that killed her. It broke through her "chest-bone", and penetrated her heart, killing her instantly.

One theory that is widely believed is that a sailor, with both a pen-knife & a dagger on his person, was responsible for her death. Many people also believe that Martha was an earlier victim of JtR, therefore resulting in some to believe JtR was a sailor. But what if Martha’s killer was JtR, but not a sailor, and did not carry 2 knives around with him on the night in question?

Is it possible that her killer, after a failed attempt on Annie Millwood five & a half months earlier, which had left her alive to potentially ID him, was anxious not to leave another victim alive? And what if the pen-knife, even though it had inflicted many terrible wounds, had not yet killed her even after 38 stabs? If Martha lay unconscious and gurgling in her own blood, I suspect the killer may have had to come up with a plan B.

So if the killer did not have another knife on his person at the time, but lived nearby, is it possible he could have ventured home to get a larger knife or dagger, and then come back to where an unconscious Martha still lay, and inflicted the final stab to the chest, which penetrated her heart?

If he was fearful that there be any chance that she could live long enough to ID him, I think this is a gamble he would take to protect his identity. It was still dark, most people were still asleep, and Martha would have been largely invisible, hidden in the dark as she was, on the first floor landing - so it was a risk to be sure, but a calculated risk.

Is it possible that Martha’s killer lived locally, and after the pen-knife failed to kill her, went home and got a bigger knife to finish her off?

Hi Pandora
I doubt it. If it was the ripper, and I think it probably was, he probably was carrying two knives.

I think he probably attacked Millwood with the pen knife, and maybe realized next time around he needed something a little more and brought a larger knife.

[Errata]

The attack on Martha was frenzied - overkill. Could the killer have become frustrated because she (possibly) wasn't quite dead and used the "bayonet" to finally finish her off. I have wondered if the bayonet attack was just the knife being held in a different way and not a pen knife, but a clasp knife.

Best wishes
C4

I don't think a clasp knife makes it through the sternum. Those hinges are usually delicate, the entire stabbing force based on a pin no bigger than a few millimeters across. I think it has to be a fixed blade.

Now one option I don't think anyone has suggested is a long finely tapered blade whose tip snaps off. It probably leaves enough of a point to stab, and the force and depth of a stab has never depended on the tip anyway. But losing say, an inch from the tip would create a completely different wound track. The blade would be wider, probably thicker because of the way blades tend to be constructed, the wound track would be messier... all things pretty typical of a triangular blade or bayonet. Which would mean they either missed a piece of the blade at the scene, or he took it with him. I feel confident that had it snapped off in the victim the doctors would have found it.

[Michael W Richards]

So if the killer did not have another knife on his person at the time, but lived nearby, is it possible he could have ventured home to get a larger knife or dagger, and then come back to where an unconscious Martha still lay, and inflicted the final stab to the chest, which penetrated her heart?

If he was fearful that there be any chance that she could live long enough to ID him, I think this is a gamble he would take to protect his identity. It was still dark, most people were still asleep, and Martha would have been largely invisible, hidden in the dark as she was, on the first floor landing - so it was a risk to be sure, but a calculated risk.

Is it possible that Martha’s killer lived locally, and after the pen-knife failed to kill her, went home and got a bigger knife to finish her off?

I would think Pandora that someone in that situation, ....and acting alone....would be inclined to finish the job using his hands if he has to rather than leave the semi conscious woman to go and get a larger weapon. Her wounds were inflicted while she was alive, so that risk would be present.

We do have evidence that a pair of soldiers were seen out with women of the night earlier that evening, we have evidence that a policeman questioned a solider later that night that claimed his mate was off with a girl, and we know for a fact that soldiers were permitted to carry bayonets or short swords on Bank Holidays. It seems that its a probable scenario that a soldier attacked Martha with his smaller pocket knife, and when the second came looking for him and found him in that situation, he used a dagger or bayonet to finish the job. Its possible the policeman interviewed that second soldier.

These soldiers need not be related to the ones Pearly Poll was called in for.

[Fisherman]

This is a reoccurring debate. It tends to get silly every time.

The smaller weapon went deeply into the body of Tabram numerous times. It punctured a number of the inner organs, meaning that the wounds it inflicted were deep. They were not shallow.

Killeen looked at all the wounds and examined all the organs, the punctured ones included. He could read directly there how wide the blade was, and the blade was not wide.

Similarly, the blade that went through the sternum also went through the heart, leaving an impression for Killeen to read. He knew that this was a wide and sturdy blade, telling it widely apart from the other one.

Some persistant posters will have it that the kiler wiggled the blade in the sternum, creating an impression of a larger blade. But no - if this had happened, the blade would have swung lika pendulum in the heart of Tabram, and Killeen would have seen this.

It was two weapons. We have no way of knowing what measueres the blades were, but we do know that they left impressions so very different so as to enable Killeen to tell them apart as one small and one large blade.

[The Good Michael]

The final wound may have been one of the shallower stabs. The dagger wound may have been the first one, piercing the sternum and all the rest of the wounds may have been done using the same dagger in a more playful mode. Killeen never says that the lesser wounds couldn't have been done with a longer blade. He says the deeper wounds couldn't have been done with a pen knife.

Mike

[curious4]

I don't think a clasp knife makes it through the sternum. Those hinges are usually delicate, the entire stabbing force based on a pin no bigger than a few millimeters across. I think it has to be a fixed blade.

Now one option I don't think anyone has suggested is a long finely tapered blade whose tip snaps off. It probably leaves enough of a point to stab, and the force and depth of a stab has never depended on the tip anyway. But losing say, an inch from the tip would create a completely different wound track. The blade would be wider, probably thicker because of the way blades tend to be constructed, the wound track would be messier... all things pretty typical of a triangular blade or bayonet. Which would mean they either missed a piece of the blade at the scene, or he took it with him. I feel confident that had it snapped off in the victim the doctors would have found it.

Hello Errata

Interesting theory! However there were clasp knives with guards, so that the blade could be locked in place.

Best wishes
C4

[Fisherman]

The final wound may have been one of the shallower stabs. The dagger wound may have been the first one, piercing the sternum and all the rest of the wounds may have been done using the same dagger in a more playful mode. Killeen never says that the lesser wounds couldn't have been done with a longer blade. He says the deeper wounds couldn't have been done with a pen knife.

Mike

Killeen said that Tabram lived through the ordeal, Mike. And she would not have done so with a pierced heart. Ergo, the wound to the sternum and heart came last.

[The Good Michael]

Nope. It is unknown which wound was the last. If the wound into the sternum killed her, it could have taken several minutes for her to bleed out, and she probably would have lost consciousness quickly. After paralyzing her so to speak, he would have had time to jab anywhere he felt like. There is nothing about Killeen's statement that tells us the order of stabs. It is logical to assume a deeper one was done at a different time than the other, but everyone is on this kick that two weapons were used. Could have been short frantic thrusts, followed by an angry deep stab that made her cease struggling, and then the rest. There is no way to know.

Mike

[Fisherman]

Nope. It is unknown which wound was the last. If the wound into the sternum killed her, it could have taken several minutes for her to bleed out, and she probably would have lost consciousness quickly. After paralyzing her so to speak, he would have had time to jab anywhere he felt like. There is nothing about Killeen's statement that tells us the order of stabs. It is logical to assume a deeper one was done at a different time than the other, but everyone is on this kick that two weapons were used. Could have been short frantic thrusts, followed by an angry deep stab that made her cease struggling, and then the rest. There is no way to know.

Mike

Yes, there is a way to know - by measuring the tracks of the baldes left in the body. It´s the same method that has always been used. If there is a hilt on the knife, then it will also make marks on the skin as it hits it.
Of course you will bleed after you are technically dead if the wounds are of a character that allows for it. But you are nevertheless dead.
Killeen said that the wounds were inflicted during life. He said that the sternum thrust pierced the heart. If it did, there could be no living through it. Ergo, it was the last stab, and Killeen did not have to say it expressively. Two blades, the smaller stabs first, during life, the sternum stab last.

Believe it or not, but medicos normaly get this very correct. Plus Killeen will have worked from the presumption that it was just one blade, since that is the natural thing to expect. The fact that he clearly told the blades apart speaks volumes of the difference in character of the blades.

[Abby Normal]

Yes, there is a way to know - by measuring the tracks of the baldes left in the body. It´s the same method that has always been used. If there is a hilt on the knife, then it will also make marks on the skin as it hits it.
Of course you will bleed after you are technically dead if the wounds are of a character that allows for it. But you are nevertheless dead.
Killeen said that the wounds were inflicted during life. He said that the sternum thrust pierced the heart. If it did, there could be no living through it. Ergo, it was the last stab, and Killeen did not have to say it expressively. Two blades, the smaller stabs first, during life, the sternum stab last.

Believe it or not, but medicos normaly get this very correct. Plus Killeen will have worked from the presumption that it was just one blade, since that is the natural thing to expect. The fact that he clearly told the blades apart speaks volumes of the difference in character of the blades.

Hi Fish
I tend to agree with this.

I think the ripper was used to carrying around the smaller/pen knife around with him, probably at all times.

He attacked millwood with it, realized it wasn't enough to do the trick, and got a larger knife. When he attacked tabram, he resorted to the smaller knife as he was used to doing in the heat of the moment and when that didn't do the trick, used the larger one to finish her off.

I have a question though for you and all-is there any evidence that any of the wounds inflicted on tabram came after the skirt was lifted? as in-wounds that didn't go through the clothes? or were all the stabs through her clothes?