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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #11  
Old 09-02-2017, 07:25 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Until the Catholic baptisms went online recently, it was impossible to know how many women named Mary Kelly whose father was named John were born in Limerick (County or City), people were reliant on just statutory registration records and the Catholic church tended to keep a hold of their records at the church they related to and statutory registration didn't start until 1864 in Ireland. If MJK had been born a Catholic and before 1864 she obviously wouldn't show in the SB records but with the new chusrch records databses we can see that there were 16 possibles among just those Catholic records that have been put online.
Yours definitely fits in the list of possibles.
The difficulty still is matching up MJK to any of these births because there isn't an Irish census that still exists before 1891 to tace anyone on.
Perhaps we are looking for the wrong faith in the wrong country.

My Mary Kelly was a local girl.
Church of England.

Mother Emma,father John.
Oldest brother John,hence Jno.
James.
Edward.
Henry.
Emma.
Mary Ann,hence fair Emma.

Pear Tree Court,Clerkenwell.
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  #12  
Old 09-03-2017, 12:21 AM
PaulWilliams PaulWilliams is offline
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Hi Dave,

Is this the Mary Kelly who was born in Shoreditch on 27 April 1859?
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  #13  
Old 09-03-2017, 12:44 AM
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Hi Dave,

Is this the Mary Kelly who was born in Shoreditch on 27 April 1859?
Yes,along with the rest of the family.
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  #14  
Old 09-03-2017, 02:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.
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  #15  
Old 09-03-2017, 05:13 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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All good points Gareth.
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.
An Irish victim killed by an Irish killer.

People with social problems ended up in areas with social problems.

The terrible burden of the social world.

Cheers, Pierre
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  #17  
Old 09-03-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.
Maria Harvey, a friend, says that she was "much superior to that of most persons in her position in life.

Almost everything that is known about Mary Jane Kelly comes from Joseph Barnett, who lived with her just prior to the murder. He, of course, had all this information from Kelly herself. Some is conflicting and it may be suspected that some, or perhaps much of it, is embellished.

John McCarthy, landlord at Miller's Court, states that she received a letter from her mother in Ireland. Barnett says that she never corresponded with her family.


Clerkenwell is far enough to distance the family from Dorset Street.

Her parents would have been 69/70,if still alive.

Circumstances leading to Mary Kelly's downfall may have cut her off from family.

Ironically the earliest recorded use of Cockney comes from Piers Plowman, 1362.
So,we have Cockneys but no Juwes

My post was actually intended for Debra A.
Thought she might find an interest in having a serious look at it.
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  #18  
Old 09-03-2017, 07:56 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Perhaps we are looking for the wrong faith in the wrong country.

My Mary Kelly was a local girl.
Church of England.

Mother Emma,father John.
Oldest brother John,hence Jno.
James.
Edward.
Henry.
Emma.
Mary Ann,hence fair Emma.

Pear Tree Court,Clerkenwell.
Hi DJA,

That Pear Tree Court was in Shoreditch rather than Clerkenwell. And Joseph Barnett's sister lived in Portpool Lane just off the Clerkenwell Road, so either way she woud have been taking a huge risk.

Gary
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  #19  
Old 09-03-2017, 08:05 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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My post was actually intended for Debra A.
Thought she might find an interest in having a serious look at it.
I'm sure she will, Dave.
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  #20  
Old 09-03-2017, 08:21 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Hi DJA,

That Pear Tree Court was in Shoreditch rather than Clerkenwell. And Joseph Barnett's sister lived in Portpool Lane just off the Clerkenwell Road, so either way she woud have been taking a huge risk.

Gary
I had a look using Google Earth.
Close,but not too close.
Especially since she had long left home.

Honestly, some people here reckon CV5 didn't know each other,then everyone should have known Mary Kelly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE

Personally,I seriously doubt that people did not know what was really going on.
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