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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #11  
Old 12-01-2014, 05:07 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam
Firstly, I should point out that the last paragraph of the OP's evidential summary is misleading because it makes it appear as if the bloodstains must have been the result of the man's "murderous assault on his wife". But the full version of the LWN article makes clear that this was the explanation for two blobs of blood that had been found further up Buck's Row (presumably in the direction towards Baker's Row), not the Brady Street blood.
Hi David, could you please copy and paste and source the specific mention of blood stains in Buck's Row that were not related to the Nichols crime scene?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #12  
Old 12-02-2014, 10:45 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi David, could you please copy and paste and source the specific mention of blood stains in Buck's Row that were not related to the Nichols crime scene?
Tom, full context below - my bold highlighting:

LLOYD'S WEEKLY NEWSPAPER
LONDON: SUNDAY, SEPT. 2, 1888.

"Shortly after noon on Friday some men while searching the pavement in Buck's-row, above the gateway, in a different direction to that from which the woman came, or was brought, found two large spots of blood, and each about the size of a shilling. The first was about 25 feet from the gateway and the second 10 feet beyond. Both were a few inches from the kerb in the roadway and clearly defined. It was at once agreed they came either from the hands or the clothing of the murderer as he went away, and that they resulted from the squeezing out some blood-soaked clothing. Our representative discovered, however, on making inquiries the same night, that at a house near where the blood spots were a man, early on the morning of the tragedy, had made a murderous assault on his wife and cut her throat. She was carried to the London hospital, and it is very probable some blood dripped from her."
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  #13  
Old 12-02-2014, 04:45 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi David, thanks for that. You don't think this is blood dripped from the ambulance as they carried Nichols away? I suppose we could rule that out if the direction they would have gone in was opposite to this. I can't imagine the killer would have gotten himself bloody, let alone stopped 25 feet away to ring a shillings worth of blood from his clothes, then stop 10 feet later to do the same.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2014, 06:02 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi David, thanks for that. You don't think this is blood dripped from the ambulance as they carried Nichols away? I suppose we could rule that out if the direction they would have gone in was opposite to this. I can't imagine the killer would have gotten himself bloody, let alone stopped 25 feet away to ring a shillings worth of blood from his clothes, then stop 10 feet later to do the same.
The direction of the ambulance was indeed in the opposite direction, as the body was taken to the Whitechapel Mortuary in or off Old Montague Street which was up the other end of Bucks Row to Brady Street.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2014, 07:25 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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So what are you suggesting this blood was from?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #16  
Old 12-03-2014, 06:29 AM
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I think the Hummerston(e) story is a red herring. It reportedly happened on the following Sunday morning, in Key Street:
http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../ea880908.html

According to online sources, Key Street is now called Key Close, and is in Bethnal Green.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2014, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
The direction of the ambulance was indeed in the opposite direction, as the body was taken to the Whitechapel Mortuary in or off Old Montague Street which was up the other end of Bucks Row to Brady Street.
If Tom was asking about the bloodstains in Buck's Row, then I read that Lloyd's article as implying they were west of where the body was found, and therefore on the route the ambulance would have taken.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:48 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
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If Tom was asking about the bloodstains in Buck's Row, then I read that Lloyd's article as implying they were west of where the body was found, and therefore on the route the ambulance would have taken.
On the basis that the bloodstains in Bucks Row were explained in the LWN article, I took him to be asking about the bloodstains in Brady Street, in the opposite direction.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:07 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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The Brady Street blood is, in my opinion, irrelevant. I was asking about the Buck's Row bloodstains. What's the situation with that?

Yours truly,

Tom Wesott
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  #20  
Old 12-03-2014, 02:30 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
So what are you suggesting this blood was from?
Well, one possible conclusion is that the blood (in Brady St) was the blood of Polly Nichols and that she was killed in Brady Street but her body was then moved (carried) by her killer to where it was found in Bucks Row.

But why, I hear you ask, would her killer have carried her dead body down Brady Street into Bucks Row? Good question.

Not something I would have thought likely were it not for the extreme darkness of the area where the body was found. Cross and Paul could barely see what was in front of their faces where a dead woman with her throat cut was lying. So how did the killer see what he was doing????? And note this question and answer of Dr Llewllyn:

"Should you think the murder was committed by anyone who understood anatomy? - I should think by someone who knew something of it; for whoever did it has attacked all the vital parts."

It's not the knowledge of anatomy I'm interested in here but simply the ability of the killer to see the vital parts and indeed just to see what he was doing in order to inflict the wounds he did. So for that reason I'm prepared to listen to theories which would explain the carrying of the body. Here's three I have come up with:

1.The killer was placing the body in certain geometric locations (to create a pentagon, or some such nonsense). I don't think so but if I was advocating a loony theory along these lines I would certainly want to rely on the Brady Street blood in support of it (apologies if anyone on here is advocating such a theory).

2. Perhaps there was some reason why the killer wanted Nichols placed outside that particular yard in Bucks Row. Can't think of a reason, so doubt it.

3. A much better theory in my opinion is this: The killer's aim was for the bodies of the women he murdered to be found by members of the public in daylight. He took great pleasure in imagining the absolute shock of the discovery of his "handiwork" in the street to the extent that it was possibly what drove him to kill. Certainly the bodies seem to me to have been posed. The killer cannot have been unaware of how they would have looked to whoever saw them in daylight. So he killed and mutilated Nichols much closer to a light source, presumably in Brady Street, where he could see what he was doing, and carried her dead body to the darkest nearby spot he could find, which was in Bucks Row. Carrying the body (unsteadily) left a trail of zig zagging bloodstains down Brady Street towards the so-called "murder site". The reason was to try and hide the body so that it would only be seen by someone walking down the street as the sun came up. Unfortunately for the killer, the body was seen by Cross, who did not ignore it thinking it was a tarpaulin, and then PC Neil came with his lamp and saw it. So it was taken away in an ambulance before the public even saw it.

Foiled in his attempt, next time he made sure he killed Annie Chapman out of the way of any meddling constable, in the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street. He posed the body with her "legs drawn up" and "knees turned outwards". But it was found a little too early in the morning and only the police/doctor really saw it properly. Next time - with Eddowes - he went back to Plan A and ensured that her body, with the most extreme mutilations so far, was placed in "the darkest portion" of Mitre Square, hoping that it would not be found until people started walking around in the morning. Again, it didn't work. PC Watkins found it with his lamp. So, with Mary Kelly, he'd had enough and killed her in a room so that a member of the public would definitely be greeted by the awful sight that he ensured he or she would see. He must have loved reading the reports of how McCarthy and Bowyer discovered the body.

Well that's the theory. I'm quite pleased with it although I have no doubt that it could be taken apart by the posters on this forum to the point where I begin to doubt my own sanity. My own objection to it would be: could the killer have had any reasonable expectation that the bodies would not be found until daylight?
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