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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 06-25-2017, 11:22 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Default Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2017, 11:39 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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I'm very intrigued by this idea that Maxwell told the truth re seeing a shaky Mary Jane in the morning, ever since coming across it depicted as a scene in Alan Moore's "From Hell" graphic novel. It was my introduction to the idea, and I have supported it on a few threads here on Casebook in recent years, but discussion rarely goes anywhere. I think only one other poster is solidly promoting the idea, and haven't seen him/her on here lately.

I also am intrigued by this encounter with Maxwell as possibly being an indication that someone else was killed in Mary Jane's place, and she actually escaped the fate has assigned to her. My attempts to work out a plot for her escape haven't garnered support here.
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  #3  
Old 06-25-2017, 11:50 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
Mrs Maxwell is a very intriguing character, she could have been.
Mistaken,
Lying.
Truthful.
Mistaken..another young woman that lived in the court , worked in a Dorset street lodging house.Maxwell stated [ meaning Kelly] ''I have seen her about in the lodging house''.
Lying.. A week before Kelly was killed a letter to the Norfolk police , was addressed from Mrs Maxwell's address in Dorset street.The question arises, did she have some motive for saying she saw Mary alive and well at 8-15,am.?
Truthful..She told it as it happened, she saw Kelly [ allegedly deceased] alive and well.
One of the above has to be correct.
Regards Richard.
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  #4  
Old 06-25-2017, 12:09 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.
Hi Richard,

This is what I think happened:

00.00-01.00/01.30 Cox seing Kelly go into her room, and Cox hearing Kelly singing.
01.30 Prater going upstairs but seeing no light in Kelly´s room
02.00 approximate TOD (time of death) drawn from the estimation of Dr Bond
03.00 Cox seeing that the light was out in Kelly´s room
03.30-04.00 Sarah Lewis and Prater hearing the scream ”Oh, Murder!” (Prater stating she heard it two or three times on 9 November, 1 time on 12 November) (misremembering)
05.00-05.45 Prater going to The Ten Bells and drinking
08.00 Last possible TOD according to the time frame given by Dr Bond
08.00-08.45 Mrs Maxwell claiming to have seen Kelly on the street (attention seeking)

First analyse question: Which time periods during the night and morning 9 November can be classified as dark time periods and possible light periods?

00.00-01.00/01.30 Cox seing Kelly go into her room, Cox hearing Kelly singing.

Dark time period 1: 01.30-03.00:

01.30 Prater going upstairs but seeing no light in Kelly´s room
03.00 Cox seeing that the light was out in Kelly´s room

Possible light time period 1:

03.30-04.00 Lewis and Prater hearing the scream ”Oh, Murder!” (Prater stating she heard it two or three times on 9 November, 1 time on 12 November)

Dark time period 2:

05.00-05.45 Prater going to The Ten Bells (not stating a word about light or darkness)

Possible light time period 2:

06.30/07.00-08.00 Prater returned
08.00 Last possible TOD (time of death) according to the time frame given by Dr Bond
08.00-08.45 Mrs Maxwell claiming to have seen Kelly on the street

Second analyse question: Is there any evidence in the time frame that supports Dr Bonds estimate?

Dr Bond states that the TOD should be set to 02.00, The time frame for rigor mortis is 6-12 hours after the murder. The last point in time when the murder could have been committed is therefore 08.00. TOD after 08.00 is not possible. Maxwells statment is therefore wrong.

The first dark time period, Dark time period 1, is 01.30-03.00. This period covers Dr Bonds estimate.

When is the first Possible light time period, making it possible for the killer to light a large fire in the grate?

It is not in the first dark time period 1 01.30-03.00. And yet, this is the time period in which Dr Bond places the TOD: at 02.00.

So the first Possible light time period, making it possible for the killer to light a large fire in the grate, is the Possible light time period 1: 03.30-04.00.

The hypothesis is, if Dr Bond was right, that this is the time period when the killer lit the large fire in the grate.

Cheers, Pierre
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  #5  
Old 06-25-2017, 12:47 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi,
Mrs Maxwell is a very intriguing character, she could have been.
Mistaken,
Lying.
Truthful.
Mistaken..another young woman that lived in the court , worked in a Dorset street lodging house.Maxwell stated [ meaning Kelly] ''I have seen her about in the lodging house''.
Lying.. A week before Kelly was killed a letter to the Norfolk police , was addressed from Mrs Maxwell's address in Dorset street.The question arises, did she have some motive for saying she saw Mary alive and well at 8-15,am.?
Truthful..She told it as it happened, she saw Kelly [ allegedly deceased] alive and well.
One of the above has to be correct.
Regards Richard.
Very logical, Richard, thank you. Let's look at these possibilities:

Mistaken-- but she persisted in saying she had definitely seen MJK alive on the street in morning light, no matter how often she was warned that her story was different from the evidence. Why was she so certain that she had seen Mary Jane Kelly, no matter how many police and inquest officials cautioned her about the disreprencies? A possibility might be the human tendency to not want to admit one has made a mistake, in the first place. Another would be that she was firm in her belief she had seen MJK, when she actually had not.

Lying-- this would tie in with Pierre's dismissal of Maxwell as an "attention-seeker", to judge from his parenthetical comment in his long time-line post. That is an easy conclusion, but doesn't really take into account that there could be some other reason behind Maxwell wanting the police to think Kelly was alive and well. The letter is an oddity, certainly. It was sent from her address-- does this mean someone in her household wrote it? If so, does this mean that someone was a) a hoaxer or b) a murderer? Did Maxwell know either of these details? If so, she could be protecting him/her. (Or herself, if Maxwell authored the letter.)

Truthful-- well, that's the kicker, isn't it, since it could throw off all the previous knowledge of this case, including the estimated time of death. Arguments against her being correct that I've read in other discussions are:
-- Joe identified the corpse.
-- The doctor's time of death is far earlier than Maxwell's story would allow.
-- If Mary lived through the early morning and went out, the time frame for her to visit the pub, encounter Maxwell after being sick, recover, go out again and end up locating another client and bringing him back to her place is too tight to fit everything in. Is this true?
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Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
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  #6  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:25 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Unfortunately we do not have the findings behind which the time of death estimates were made.

We do know MJK was dead and mutilated with no assailant around by 1045.
The first assessment by a doctor was three hours later.

If the TOD estimate was by cooling, a cold November morning with massive blood loss and denudement of flesh and opening of the peritoneal cavity would have accelerated temperature loss (and hence overestimated time since death)

If TOD is from rigor mortis, we now have evidence for full rigidity to be in place by as little as three hours (see Derrick Pounders lecture notes), rather than the six plus quoted by Pierre.

I cannot see insect evidence being used (although known and referred to by Doyle the larvae are not apparent until over one day)

Stomach contents is now considered too variable to be of any practical use.

So although Maxwell may be correct in her statement, it is by no means certain. The same also applies to Bond/Phillips.

Best wishes

Paul
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  #7  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:30 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Not just Caroline Maxwell, Maurice Lewis claimed to have seen her that morning too, so are they both wrong???

Both mistaken

Both lying

Both just glory hunters

Both just idiots
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There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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  #8  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:31 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Pcdunn,
I will attempt to unravel these three,
Mistaken..Back in the 1970's I read a article that allegedly had Mrs Maxwell saying the following. ''Her eyes looked queer , as if suffering from a heavy cold''
This was referring to her sighting of Mary around 8.15 am on the Friday morning.
However I can find no record of these words in any published work, only the wording from Mccormick's publication ''All muffled up , as in cold.''
I definitely read such a article , and the words have stayed with me since.
What interests me is George Hutchinson's quote, ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief ''
This was heard at approx 2.30 am Friday 9th.,
My point being if Mary Kelly was killed before Maxwell's sighting. the point about Kelly looking like she was in cold, might go hand in hand with Mary Kelly requiring the use of a handkerchief., and she was unaware of Hutchinson's statement.
Lying..if a deliberate lie, for her to risk giving false information to the police, and lying at the inquest, it was a lot more then ''being in the limelight'', and may imply that she was attempting to give someone a alibi, by suggesting that the victim was not killed during the hours of darkness.
Maxwell's husband was working that night, in the lodging house.
Truth.. Then Mary Kelly was killed most likely by the man seen to be speaking to her outside Ringers, at 8-45 am. he would have been the last recorded sighting of a man seen with the victim.
Regards Richard.
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:37 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Gut,
Maurice Lewis stated that he was playing ''Pitch and toss'' in the court around 9.am [ which was illegal] that would suggest that he may have been truthful.
There is also a account that Kelly was with company in Ringers at 10..am , and someone came in , and said she was wanted outside., and apparently went back to her room with that person.
How long would the mutilations have taken, he sliced open Eddowes, and disfigured her in a couple of minutes, or so.?
Regards Richard,

Last edited by richardnunweek : 06-25-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2017, 03:07 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Not just Caroline Maxwell, Maurice Lewis claimed to have seen her that morning too, so are they both wrong???

Both mistaken

Both lying

Both just glory hunters

Both just idiots
Hi GUT.

The thing I noticed about M. Lewis's evidence is that he seems to describe what Maxwell did that morning - going for milk.
I tried to figure out just how an error like this could have happened. Either Lewis confused the person the reporter was inquiring about, or the reporter misunderstood who Lewis was talking about.

His story just seems a little odd when we compare it with what Maxwell did.
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