Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Was Annie Chapman a rotund woman? - by DJA 8 minutes ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by DJA 41 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 1 hour and 15 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: How about the "Bad Cop" ??? - by jerryd 1 hour and 24 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: Acquiring A Victorian Diary - by John Wheat 1 hour and 27 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: How about the "Bad Cop" ??? - by j.r-ahde 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Shades of Whitechapel: Caught!? Long Island Serial Killer suspect - (16 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (7 posts)
Kosminski, Aaron: My theory on Kosminski - (5 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - (5 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: How about the "Bad Cop" ??? - (4 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:38 AM
emlodik emlodik is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 104
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Let me just say from the outset that there never was any Ruth Jenkins - she is a figment of my over-excited fantasy, designed to enable us to discuss the perceived differences between the Ripper and the Torso killer.

So here goes!

Ruth Jenkins was a typical East End woman, 36 years old, married and living in a small flat with her husband and two young boys in Mile End Road. On the night of October 14, 1888, she quarelled with her husband, and he threw her out at 1.30 AM. Mrs Jenkins then set off for a friends lodgings in Edward Street (having said this to her husband as she left), but she never made it there. She was instead found at around 2 AM in a doorway in nearby Ducket Street, horribly murdered and disfigured.

She had had her abdomen ripped open from ribcage to pubes, and the intestines had been cut loose and thrown to the side. The abdominal wall had been cut largely away in three panes, flung beside the body in a pool of blood. After this, the assailant had cut out her uterus, which was found under her neck. The liver had also been cut out and was nowhere to be seen - apparently, the killer had run off with it. The immediate cause of death was a fierce cut to the neck, leaving a gaping wound - in effect, all of the major vessels had been severed by the cut, that had nearly taken the poor woman´s head off. The face had suffered damage too, the nosetip, the ears and the flesh on the forehead having been cut away and left by the poor creatures side.

Not a sound had been heard of the deed by the people living in Ducket Street, although there were those who professed to having slept with their windows open. There were no marks of any kind of the body apart from the cuts and a few bruises around the chin of the victim. The mystery is therefore a total one.

Now, lets hear what you think of this deed. Everybody is encouraged to chime in and give their view. Is there any propable culprit that jumps to mind?

Which bid would we go for on the Jenkins murder?

The Ripper, who we know cut his victims bellies like this, who we know took out uteri, who we know took out non-sexual organs too, who we know cut away faces or parts of them, who we know cut away abdominal walls in sections and who we know cut necks, almost decapitating people?

The Torso killer, who we know cut his victims bellies like this, who we know took out at least one uterus, who we know took out non-sexual organs too, who we know cut away faces or parts of them, who we know cut away abdominal walls in sections and who we know cut necks, so as to decapitate people?

Or somebody else?

Who would you favour - and exactly why?

Let´s hear what you have to say! How do we solve the Ruth Jenkins murder? Ducket Street, by the way, was exactly as far removed from Bucks Row as Mitre Square was, but to the east.

Once we have your answers, we will move on and change a few parameters. I hope you will all join in - this should be interesting!
My money's on the husband. He probably cut her neck during a heated argument and then mutilated the body to take the scent off himself after reading the reports of the Ripper and Torso murders in the local papers.
__________________
What's all this then?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:49 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
When you bait the hook as you did Fisherman, by using details from individual murders and culling them under one mans work, its difficult to play along. You've cited details from individual murders, not just the details from a murder we can safely say was committed by the character who was known as The Ripper, Annie Chapmans. Yes the flaps are there, and the intestines over the shoulder, and the missing organs...but in that murder there was no facial marking...only in Kate and Marys murders, no organs placed under the head...as in Mary's murder, and no mention of items placed about the body or the fact that this Ripper fellow cuts throats deeply twice.


So the above example wouldn't lead a true investigator to anyone, let alone 2 characters who engaged in very different activities.

If Ruth Jenkins murder had the attributes of Annie Chapmans murder, then you have a storyline. Throwing acts into the mix that we cannot say with any certainty represent what we had learned about the killer to that point in time doesn't help.

On this point Ill say that for anyone to compare The Torso Acts with the Rippers act the samples should be from any Torso murder and Annie Chapmans murder, the ONLY one of the Five that is certainly a murder that virtually everyone attributes to this Ripper fellow.
Thanks for chiming in, Michael!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:50 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
>>You forgot to explain how you reached your stance.<<

Pretty much as Zena has already described.
Thanks for that!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:51 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
Never the Torso Killer. Either the Ripper, or a copycat. The Torso Killer had some private place where he cut his victims up. The Ripper was comfortable doing that in a doorway, or an ill-lit corner of a yard.
Okay, thanks for giving your view!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:52 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emlodik View Post
My money's on the husband. He probably cut her neck during a heated argument and then mutilated the body to take the scent off himself after reading the reports of the Ripper and Torso murders in the local papers.
Aha! Thank you for that!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:30 AM
harry harry is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,684
Default

Just a question Fisherman.Why would she tell her husband where she was going?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:56 AM
harry harry is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,684
Default

Suppose the torso man kills her,is disturbed before doing anything else,then the person who disturbs torso man,the Ripper ,does the mutilating.Proving they were two different people.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:12 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,925
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry View Post
Suppose the torso man kills her,is disturbed before doing anything else,then the person who disturbs torso man,the Ripper ,does the mutilating.
How incredibly unlucky!
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:18 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry View Post
Just a question Fisherman.Why would she tell her husband where she was going?
Normally, she would not. But this is a theoretical thread only, and the information about where she was going is part of it all. It facilitates for us to build a picture of what happened, that´s all. I needed a rason for her to be out on the streets alone, late at night, quite simply.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:35 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Now, lets change the story:

Ruth Jenkins was a typical East End woman, 36 years old, married and living in a small flat with her husband and two young boys in Mile End Road. On the night of October 14, 1888, she quarelled with her husband, and he threw her out at 1.30 AM. Mrs Jenkins then set off for a friends lodgings in Edward Street (having said this to her husband as she left), but she never made it there.

The day after she disappeared, her full torso was found floating in the Thames, head, arms and legs missing, and wrapped in cloth that had been tied around the torso with some string. Over the next few days, her mutilated remains were found one by one, but for the head, all of them between Canary Wharf and Woolwich. Following the post-mortem, it was disclosed that the woman had had had her abdomen ripped open from ribcage to pubes before the division of the body was made, and the intestines had apparently been cut loose from their attachments. The abdominal wall had been cut largely away in three panes, two of which were found in a parcel together with the uterus. All of the internal organs were in place except the beforementioned uterus and the liver. The latter had been removed, apparently by the killer. The cause of death was believed to be bleeding from the arteries in the neck.
A particularly disturbing find was a nosetip, two ears and what is believed to be cut away skin from the forehead, wrapped up in a parcel formed by the third flap of the abdominal flesh cut away from Jenkins, rolled into cloth and tied up.


A search and interviews along the stretch from Mrs Jenkins Mile End Road home and Edward Street has turned up nothing. Nobody professes to have seen the poor woman, and the mystery is total.

So - who killed her?

The Ripper?

The Torso killer?

The combined Ripper and Torso killer?

Or somebody else?

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-12-2017 at 02:38 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.