Double event victims - Throat wounds

[Mr Lucky]

Elsewhere, Wickerman and I have discussed the differences in the killers method of attack on the throats of the various Whitechapel murders, in particular Nichols, Chapman and the victims of the double event, and even some non-C5 victims such as McKenzie and Coles.

The popular image of Jack the Ripper - the traditional figure, is of a killer who slashed his victims throats. Different models have him attacking the victims from the front or from behind. However the slashing action is the same in either case. This appears to be just a product of the obsession with profiling, putting the Whitechapel victims into ‘non-ripper’ and ‘ripper’ type categories.

Let's consider Dr Brown’s examination of Eddowes throat wound;-

The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.

The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side. The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed. The larynx was severed below the vocal chord. All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages. The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.

The carotid artery had a fine hole opening, the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. All these injuries were performed by a sharp instrument like a knife, and pointed.

If we break down what Brown said into approximately sentence length sections

1) The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches.
2) A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.
3) The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side.
4) The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed.
5) The larynx was severed below the vocal chord.
6) All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages.
7) The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.
8) The carotid artery had a fine hole opening,
9) the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided.
10) The blood vessels contained clot.
11) All these injuries were performed by a sharp instrument like a knife, and pointed.

Then test two different proposals to see which fits the best ;-

Hypothesis 1

The C5 murderer, the traditional 'Jack the Ripper' type figure of popular Ripperology, usually kills by slashing the throats of his victims. He then performed the mutilations (if any) after death.

Testing Hypothesis 1

No. 1-5 - Don’t initially note any problems with the first 5
No. 6 - "All the deep structures were severed to the bone" totally incompatible with No. 2 "superficial cut"
No. 7-9 - fitting No. 7,8 and 9 with the deep slash type wound model starts to be problematic. In particular No.9, how had “the inch and a half” opening which was had “not divided” the internal jugular occurred , when considered in combination with the following;-

a) that the spinal cartilage was marked by the blade (No. 6)
b) minimal damage done to the carotid artery and sheath (No. 7 + 8)
c) the length of the cut “six or seven inches” long (No. 1)
d) the cut ended below the right ear (No. 2)
No. 10 - the blood had clotted in the vessels on the right side, but if the flesh had been cut through from surface inwards then the pressure should have forced the blood capable of clotting out of the wound (as it did on the left side of the throat)
No. 11 - Brown knows the instrument is definitely pointed, but it's only “like a knife” if the wound had only been caused by the edge of a blade, how would Brown know it was pointed?

Hypothesis 2

The Whitechapel murderer*, usually kills by stabbing the victims, in this case in the throat. He then performed the mutilations (if any) after death (in this case including a superficial throat cut.)

* = W10, exclude Pinchin St torso

Testing Hypothesis 2

No. 1-11 - Don’t initially note any problems with this explanation fitting with any of the information.
No. 3-9 - Assuming a knife that tapers toward the point, then that would explain the descending damage done internally to the neck from left to right;- the large muscle and both vessels on the left completely severed , as was the larynx (in the middle of the throat) , then the large opening in the internal jugular and then the minimal damage done to the carotid on the right.
No. 11 - Only a stab wound would enable Brown to observe that the instrument was pointed

Are these accurate assessments ?
Does anyone want to attempt another interpretation ?

[Scott Nelson]

It's difficult to reconstruct, Pete. But I would say #8 reinforces #11 with respect to the knife being pointed and the fine hole opening in the artery. Not that the artery was cut through, but stabbed.

[Wickerman]

For what its worth, I see Dr Brown describing a single wound which has two separate causes, though he does not commit himself to enumerating the number of cuts employed.

In keeping with your list, I suggest the following.

1) The throat was cut across to the extent of about six or seven inches.
2) A superficial cut commenced about an inch and a half below the lobe below, and about two and a half inches behind the left ear, and extended across the throat to about three inches below the lobe of the right ear.

One superficial cut, not too deep across the throat for about 6-7 inches.


3) The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side.
4) The large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed.
5) The larynx was severed below the vocal chord.
6) All the deep structures were severed to the bone, the knife marking intervertebral cartilages.

The deep cut (to the bone) described above is only on the left side of the neck, and tapers off across the center (including the larynx).


7) The sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened.
8) The carotid artery had a fine hole opening,
9) the internal jugular vein was opened about an inch and a half -- not divided.

These wounds on the right side are only slight when compared to those on the left side.

Numbers 1 & 2 are one passage of the knife.
Numbers 3-6 are a separate stab of the knife, which was then dragged across the throat to taper off as described in 7-9.
At least two uses of the knife.

[Damaso Marte]

The two passes of the knife theory seems consistent to me. It would also fit nicely with Chapman and Nichols having two throat wounds.

[Mr Lucky]

It's difficult to reconstruct, Pete. But I would say #8 reinforces #11 with respect to the knife being pointed and the fine hole opening in the artery. Not that the artery was cut through, but stabbed.

Hi Scott,

Thanks, I agree about reconstructions - in fact I'd suggest all the descriptions of the throat wounds for all the victims are difficult to understand. In this case I also think the diminishing size of the wound between the sheath (7) and the vein (8) also indicates a stab.

Do you think that all the damage done to the throat is from one use or two distinct and separate uses of the knife?

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Wickerman,

For what its worth, I see Dr Brown describing a single wound which has two separate causes, though he does not commit himself to enumerating the number of cuts employed.

Ok, I get what you mean - Brown seems keen to avoid any speculation indicated with his statement - " sharp instrument like a knife" , so he may only want to describe the actual damage and not guess at the number of separate incisions.

Numbers 1 & 2 are one passage of the knife.

Yes, I agree.

Numbers 3-6 are a separate stab of the knife, which was then dragged across the throat to taper off as described in 7-9.

This is more like my view of Strides throat wound, one which began as a stab and then became a cut only when the killer pulled the blade through the soft tissues. Conversely in the Eddowes case, the blade had cut into the cartilage of the spine (6) - which suggest to me that the blades edge was facing the spine - the killer was restricted, effectively unable to cut further and so could only retract the blade through the same wound and so this incision remained a stab.

At least two uses of the knife.

Yes , I agree.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Ok, I get what you mean - Brown seems keen to avoid any speculation indicated with his statement - " sharp instrument like a knife" , so he may only want to describe the actual damage and not guess at the number of separate incisions.

That is precisely it, he is describing the damage, as he found it.
Unfortunately, this has traditionally led to the belief that there was only one passing of the knife.

This is more like my view of Strides throat wound, one which began as a stab and then became a cut only when the killer pulled the blade through the soft tissues....

I did compare Blackwell's description of Stride's wound to that given by Dr Brown of Eddowes. Very similar in length, but not so deep.

[curious]

That is precisely it, he is describing the damage, as he found it.
Unfortunately, this has traditionally led to the belief that there was only one passing of the knife.



I did compare Blackwell's description of Stride's wound to that given by Dr Brown of Eddowes. Very similar in length, but not so deep.

Hi, Jon,
It's been quite awhile since I looked at the cuts for similarities, but isn't there something about them both maybe "going up" or the exit or end being closer to the ear lobe than where the cut started. ie, they are not straight and level?

curious

[Hunter]

This is more like my view of Strides throat wound, one which began as a stab and then became a cut only when the killer pulled the blade through the soft tissues.

Phillips was essentially asked about this when giving evidence on the knife presented to Constable Drage and found by Coram. Although the knife in question had a rounded tip, he could not say with certainty that the murder weapon was pointed, indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat instead plunged into it and then drawn.

[Mr Lucky]

Phillips was essentially asked about this when giving evidence on the knife presented to Constable Drage and found by Coram. Although the knife in question had a rounded tip, he could not say with certainty that the murder weapon was pointed, indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat instead plunged into it and then drawn.

There appear to be some confusion regarding the Coram knife and the double event victims throat wounds - in this case Stride. There are more than factors in play here regarding Coram's Knife.

Firstly - The tip of the knife - generally, a knife can have two types of tip to the blade;- sharp point or round point - however, there are other types of blade which have no tip;- a meat cleaver, some machetes etc
Secondly - The length of the knife
Thirdly - The wound itself, its location in the neck, and it's length
Fourthly - The position of the body when the wound was inflicted

What Philips stated about the Coram knife was

Such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck of the deceased; but it was not such a weapon as I would have chosen to inflict injuries in this particular place; and if my opinion as regards the position of the body is correct, the knife in question would become an improbable instrument as having caused the incision.

So the Coram knife COULD have inflicted the injuries on stride (but was improbable).

Interesting to note, Philips' use of the phrase "incision and injuries" as if the two are not a result of just one action.

Next;-

The CORONER. - Could you give us any idea of the position of the victim? Witness. - I have come to the conclusion that the deceased was seized by the shoulders, placed on the ground, and that the perpetrator of the deed was on her right side when he inflicted the cut. I am of the opinion that the cut was made from the left to right side of the deceased, and therefore arises the unlikelihood of such a long knife having inflicted the wound described in the neck, taking into account the position of the incision.

So, here it seems that it's the length of Coram's knife that is the problem.

The CORONER. - Was there anything in the cut that showed the incision first made was done with a pointed knife? Witness. - No.

However, admittedly this line can be interpreted to demonstrate that the knife was only used to slash Strides throat, but then that doesn't explain why Coram's knife was too long to do the job.

I suspect that the distinction that Baxter is referring to here is really that between sharp-pointed knife and round-pointed knife - like Coram's knife. This is demonstrated when Blackwell was recalled (next witness) and stated;-

With respect to the knife which was found, I can confirm Dr. Phillips in his opinion that, although it might possibly have inflicted the injury, it is an extremely unlikely instrument to have been used. It appears to me that a murderer, in using a round pointed instrument, would severely handicap himself, as he would only be able to use it in one particular way. I am told that slaughterers only use sharp pointed knives. It is not a suggestion of mine that a slaughterer did the deed.

Question - If the wound is a slash and not a stab , why would Blackwell state that the murderer in using a round pointed instrument would "severely handicap himself"

Elsewhere in the press, this same section was recorded as;-

(Blackwell) I am told that slaughterers always use a sharp-pointed instrument.
The Coroner: No one has suggested that this crime was committed by a slaughterer. - Witness: I simply intended to point out the inconvenience that might arise from using a blunt-pointed weapon.

Question - If the wound was a slash and not a stab, why would a blunt-pointed weapon cause inconvenience ?

[Hunter]

I believe Phillips was referring to how unwieldy the knife in question would have been - a combination of its length and the blunt tip. Considering his opinion that Stride's throat was cut after she was on the ground and on her left side, he probably thought a more pointed and compact knife would have been more likely to have inflicted the wound.

Fact is, few knives are not pointed. The apparently described baker's knife found by Coram would be the exception. As a hunter I know that a cut can be started with the blade and then as its drawn the point helps with penetration after the cut is started. This is what I believe Brown was describing in Eddowes throat wound. By mentioning "injuries" as plural, these physicians were delineating each organ affected ( carotid artery, larynx, windpipe...etc.) but not necessarily done with different passes of the knife.

[Mr Lucky]

I believe Phillips was referring to how unwieldy the knife in question would have been - a combination of its length and the blunt tip. Considering his opinion that Stride's throat was cut after she was on the ground and on her left side, he probably thought a more pointed and compact knife would have been more likely to have inflicted the wound.

This is what you have said in the previous post

Although the knife in question had a rounded tip, he could not say with certainty that the murder weapon was pointed, indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat instead plunged into it and then drawn.

Now you've changed from "indicating that it was simply drawn across her throat " to how unwieldy the knife was - "a combination of its length and the blunt tip". For some reason 'simply drawn' has changed to 'unwieldy' ?

If the wound was a slash drawn across her throat, inflicted whilst Stride was on the floor then the length of the weapon is totally irrelevant - her throat could have been slashed with a 5 foot long blade, in which case the damage would have been inflicted with just the end of the blade near the tip. A stabbing action is the only mechanism for inflicting the injury on Stride which could be affected by how long the blade was, considering her position relative to the wall, and that the wound was started on her left.

If the wound was just a slash then all the discussion at the inquest about the length of the instrument and which particular type of point it had would not have happened, as there would be nothing about the wound that could possibly give any information about those factors.

If the wound was a slash then the only judgement they could make is how sharp the blade was.

Fact is, few knives are not pointed. The apparently described baker's knife found by Coram would be the exception. As a hunter I know that a cut can be started with the blade and then as its drawn the point helps with penetration after the cut is started. This is what I believe Brown was describing in Eddowes throat wound.

Ok, what is it specifically that Brown has said that causes you to believe this

By mentioning "injuries" as plural, these physicians were delineating each organ affected ( carotid artery, larynx, windpipe...etc.) but not necessarily done with different passes of the knife.

I have not suggested that the word injuries means that each vessel in the throat was cut individually.

What I have pointed out is that Philips is making a distinction between the "incision" and the "injuries". This is the section of text again

"Such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck of the deceased; but it was not such a weapon as I would have chosen to inflict injuries in this particular place; and if my opinion as regards the position of the body is correct, the knife in question would become an improbable instrument as having caused the incision."

The incision is the stabbing action, the injuries are from the cutting action as blade was pulled through the soft tissue.

"not such a weapon as I would have chosen to inflict injuries" - not what he would have chosen, but the blade was quite capable of it (it's sharp enough)

"an improbable instrument as having caused the incision." - it is improbable that the blade caused the incision (it's too long)

[Bridewell]

A different knife does not necessarily denote a different killer. It might be the case that, on a particular occasion, the same killer happened to be in possession of a different knife.

As for the modus operandi / number of passes of the knife, an experienced killer is likely, in my view, to stick with what he considers to be a tried and tested technique. A novice killer would be more likely to experiment and thus seek to improve his method.

[Mr Lucky]

A different knife does not necessarily denote a different killer. It might be the case that, on a particular occasion, the same killer happened to be in possession of a different knife.

As for the modus operandi / number of passes of the knife, an experienced killer is likely, in my view, to stick with what he considers to be a tried and tested technique. A novice killer would be more likely to experiment and thus seek to improve his method.

The thread is an attempt to look at the mechanics of the throat wounds of the victims of the double event, as described by those who examined the wounds and then gave evidence at the relevant inquest.

[GUT]

G'day Bridewell

As for the modus operandi / number of passes of the knife, an experienced killer is likely, in my view, to stick with what he considers to be a tried and tested technique. A novice killer would be more likely to experiment and thus seek to improve his method.

But at what point do you go from novice to experienced, 2 kills, three ???