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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Fleming, Joseph

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  #1  
Old 06-16-2010, 10:31 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Default A Intresting find?

Hi all,
I am not [ ashamed to say] known for research, however it is possible that I have come across something of intrest.
I have found a connection between Bethnal Green, and the Monument tea Warehouse at the docks, in which Joseph Fleming may have worked in 1887.
I was researching into Cutler street and its tea warehouse, when I came across a meeting held in 1887, over a pay dispute.
Ben Tillett, who was to become very powerful in the labour ranks attended that meeting along with Harry Orbell, who was to become first president of the Tea operatives and General Labourers Association, both of these had conection to Bethnal Green, the former living there in the 1881 census, and the latter born there, and to my knowledge still residing there, also both of these were born 1860.
So where does Fleming fit in to this.?
The following is taken from Tilletts memoirs.
The men who had taken the initiative in calling this meeting were my workmates, one or two of them my best friends, 'Fleming, the BRAWNY GIANT',and Harry Orwell, who became president of our union.
Is this our Joseph Fleming, ?
Is this confirmation of his size?
All three men had connections to Bethnal Green, all three of these men named, worked at the Monument tea warehouse at the docks. and all were the same age.
I recall that it has been claimed that victims were found near tea warehouses, the obvious being Mitre square.
We also have one letter claiming to be from Cutler street.
Did the killer have connections with the tea trade?
And finally was the man Tillett describes our infamous Joseph Fleming.?
Every chance I would suggest.
Regards Richard.
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  #2  
Old 06-16-2010, 12:12 PM
Bob Hinton Bob Hinton is offline
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Default Research

Interesting find, but wasn't our party called Flemming and wasn't he a plasterer?
Speaking purely from memory here.
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  #3  
Old 06-16-2010, 01:48 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default Isaacs

Hello Richard. Good find. Fascinating.

Have you come across an Isaacs? Fleming was muttering something about an "Isaacs" whilst in the lunatic asylum. He indicated that he had worked for him and that this Isaacs had lived (I think) either in Mile End or Mile End road.

The best.
LC
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:00 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Morning Bob,
Yes indeed Fleming was a plasterer, however when he was certified, his occupation at that time was Dock Labourer.
Obviously we do not know when his occupation altered,actually the term plasterers labourer was his true profession.
I just thought it rather intresting that three individuals who had connections with Bethnal Green, who were of the same age, and worked at the same place, one of them being mentioned as a 'Brawny giant' called Fleming.
If the records for the said man are correct, then 6'7 would be rather a giant figure I would suggest.
Regards Richard.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:11 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hello Lynn,
The trouble is Fleming [ if the right person] may have had many jobs since his plasterers labouring days when he was kellys beau.
If the man in my initial post is the correct person, we can assume that he was employed at the docks, and if the memoirs of Tillett are accurate then he would have worked at the Monument tea Warehouse in 1887, and continued that until is committal to a institution in 1891/2, as his occupation then was dock labourer.
What his ramblings meant , I have no idea, but I will endeavour to follow down the path that unravelled all of this one never knows.
Regards Richard.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:16 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default ravings

Hello Richard. Thanks. I don't see a problem with the time frame. Indeed, I would take it that he had worked for this man early on. So 1887 would fit fine.

You are right that, a lunatic's ravings may be full of sound and fury signifying nothing. On the other hand, in vino veritas--and that would include the wine of Bacchus' madness.

Cheers.
LC
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:54 PM
claire claire is offline
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Hi, Richard.
I've come across this before, and I'm afraid I haven't got any conclusive answers. At first I thought he was referring to John William (aka 'Chummy') Fleming, who moved from the UK to Australia and became very active in the unionist movement, following some early radicalism (amongst the family, too) in the UK. However, this chappy, who certainly did have connections with Tillett, moved to Melbourne in 1884--he is credited with helping raise that enormous fund from Aussie dockers that helped the Great Dock Strike continue to a successful conclusion. There was a swathe of family members both in the UK and Australia, however, and of course I don't have a record of them because I broke my old laptop and am rubbish at genealogical research, and I kind of assumed that it was one of those (and they certainly aren't *our* Joe's family), or that Chummy had come back on a visit, as Tillett did to Aussie a while later.
Still, it's not impossible that the Fleming that Tillett refers to is Joseph Fleming aka James Evans, docks labourer--by that time, thanks to Tillett, a decent enough wage was to be had at the docks...the only thing that gives me pause is the 'brawny,' but of course, Fleming could have lost considerable weight by the time of his committal in 1892. I just...sort of doubted it. But good luck with your investigations, though--keep us posted

Could you please direct me to your source for our Fleming having worked at the Monument Tea Warehouse, if you don't mind?

Lynn--I'm not sure that Joe Fleming said that this Isaacs had lived in the Mile End Road--just that he'd been coconut shying with him there.

Joe Fleming, eh? My favourite JtR character...just the mention of his name brightens my day
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claire
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:02 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default assumption

Hello Claire. You are right. I merely assumed that Isaacs lived where he played.

Cheers.
LC
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:24 PM
Bob Hinton Bob Hinton is offline
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Default Missing the point

Yes as I said isn't the man involved in MJK FleMMing not FleMing.
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Old 06-16-2010, 04:06 PM
claire claire is offline
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I don't know that I'd get hung up on that, Bob, to be fair...Fleming's name is spelled both ways on the records, and his mother is listed on the confinement record as Henrietta Fleming. Then again, he's on it as James Evans, so...
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