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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Fleming, Joseph

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  #21  
Old 12-23-2008, 03:47 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi chaps,

Off hand, I recall that the "Fleming giving her money" detail may have originated from Venturney's police statement, but I don't have my sourcebook handy!

Best regards,
Ben
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  #22  
Old 12-23-2008, 04:12 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Hi Ben,

It was in her inquest testimony. This should be cued up right, but if not, it's on page 416. That's right, Evans & Skinner is online.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DnR...nner#PPA416,M1

Hope this helps,

Roy
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  #23  
Old 12-23-2008, 04:15 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Thanks for that, Roy. Much appreciated. I couldn't access the exact page from your link, but I'll gladly take your word for it!
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  #24  
Old 12-23-2008, 04:53 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Thanks, Roy

However - picking up on Ben's point about her police statement - Venturney attributes the money-giving to Joe Barnett: "I knew the man who I saw down stairs (Joe Barnett) he is called Joe, he lived with her until quite recently. I have heard him say that he did not like her going out on the streets, he frequently gave her money, he was very kind to her, he said he would not live with her while she led that course of life."

Whilst the official inquest files indeed record her as saying that "the other Joe" was prone to give her money, they also show that she believed this "other Joe" was a costermonger.

There appears to be some real confusion in Julia Venturney's testimony on this specific point. I may be wrong in this, but whereas many press reports state that Venturney testified that Joe Barnett was kind to Mary, none of them appear to record her saying that "the other Joe" gave her money. Is this another instance where the official record is to be found wanting, and the journalists' accounts closer to the truth?
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  #25  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:06 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Well Sam, I don't rightly know the answer. Her Police statement and inquest testimony together. (I have bolded her part about the "other Joe.")

From Evans & Skinner - Statement of Julia Venturney 9 Nov 1888

I occupy No 1 room Millers Court I am a widow, charwoman but now living with a man named Harry Owen. I was awake all night and could not sleep. I have known the person occupying No 13 room opposite mine for about 4 months. I knew the man who I saw down stairs (Joe Barnett) he is called Joe, he lived with her until quite recently. I have heard him say that he did not like her ["because" - deleted] going out on the streets, he frequently gave her money, he was very kind to her, he said he would not live with her while she led that course of life, she used to get tipsey occasionally. She broke the windows a few weeks ago whilst she was drunk, she told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe (Barnett). I saw her last about ["1.40" - deleted] pm yesterday. Thursday about 10 A.M

Inquest:

Julia Venturney having been sworn deposed as follows: I live at No 1 room Millers Court I am a charwoman I live with Harry Owen I knew the female who occupied No. 13 room she said she was a married woman and her name was Kelly. She lived with Joe Barnett she frequently got drunk Joe Barnett would not let her go on the streets – Deceased said she was fond of another man named Joe who used to come and see her and give her money I think he was a costermonger she said she was very fond of him – I last saw her alive on Thursday about 10 a m having her breakfast with another woman in her room. I went to bed on Thursday night about 8 oclock I could not sleep all night I only dozed I heard no one in the court I heard no singing I heard no scream – deceased often sung Irish songs.

Was not the Kelly inquest the only one where we have the official record? Is that what you mean Sam, that the newpaper coverage of this portion of testimony is different?
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2008, 05:31 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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All things considered, eveything Julia said pales to the hearsay she repeated from the lips of the deceased - she told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe (Barnett) which was contained in the police statement. The question of if this "Joe" was giving her money really doesn't matter opposed to the above statement. (IMHO)

Otherwise, we're playin Buckaroo!
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  #27  
Old 12-23-2008, 02:11 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
Was not the Kelly inquest the only one where we have the official record?
Not quite, Roy - the official Eddowes records also survive(d).
Quote:
Is that what you mean Sam, that the newpaper coverage of this portion of testimony is different?
That appears to be the case, as far as I can tell. None of the papers (not even those who take a "verbatim" approach to reporting the proceedings), appear to record Venturney saying that "the other Joe" used to give Mary money.

Your observation about "Buckaroo" is spot-on, by the way - and you used the term correctly! 'Tis enough to note that "the other Joe" (whom we assume to be Fleming, and of whom Mary was very fond) would ill-use Kelly on account of her living with Barnett.
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  #28  
Old 12-23-2008, 03:53 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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Hi Sam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Your observation about "Buckaroo" is spot-on, by the way - and you used the term correctly! 'Tis enough to note that "the other Joe" (whom we assume to be Fleming, and of whom Mary was very fond) would ill-use Kelly on account of her living with Barnett.
And as such (in police eyes) surely a suspect in the murder of Mary Kelly. In my eyes the police acting on the information supplied surely must have sought out the Joe who ill used Mary Kelly. I'd say Fleming was interviewed, and if he was it certainly wouldnt have done his fragile mental health any good, actually it could have tipped him over, resulting in his subsequent collapse.

all the best

Observer
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  #29  
Old 12-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Observer writes:
"In my eyes the police acting on the information supplied surely must have sought out the Joe who ill used Mary Kelly."

Feasible. But would they have gone looking for a James Evans in doing so?

All the best!
Fisherman
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  #30  
Old 12-23-2008, 04:19 PM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Observer,

The chances of Fleming having been tracked down by the police are incredibly slim, considering that he moved into the murder district in August of 1888, and was known to resort to an alias. If he'd been using that alias since that August, which wasn't a very long time, there's no reason to suppose that anyone at the Victoria Home knew him as Fleming.

Best regards,
Ben
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