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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Fleming, Joseph

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  #11  
Old 12-21-2008, 09:52 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hinton View Post
Surely the person we should be looking at is 'Flemming' not 'Fleming'?
Spellings vary, Bob - indeed, as Chris Scott discovered, Flem(m)ing's birth certificate shows his name with only one "M", and other family members appear under the "single M" variant in a number of census entries.
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  #12  
Old 12-22-2008, 12:06 AM
perrymason
 
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Hello all,

Whether single "M", double "M", 150 or 160 years of family madness, this guy is a known certifiable that is having a relationship with Mary while she is also having one with Barnett, ...what if......what would happen to someone who has uncontrollable moments when what he thought was his girlfriend denies him the ability to move into Barnett's vacant side of the bed...perhaps even with a job and ability to take care of Mary somewhat.

I think Fleming found out something about Mary Jane that he didnt know until then, although the signs are clearly there...Mary was someone that one poor man couldnt keep. Thats why she is seeing both Joe's simultaeneously, and maybe more "Joe's", not because she still had some unrequited true love for him.....remember, the story is that he wanted to marry her, and since they didnt get married but still see each other, I have to assume she didnt say "yes", but was either fearful or greedy enough to allow him to remain in, or return to, her life to some degree.

My thinking is that her Parisienne adventure was her first attempt at being "kept" by someone with means, and she couldnt handle the civility, and good behaviour. She needed fun...drinking..but she still felt that she deserved nicer things while doing that.

Best regards all.

ps......around 3:45am on November 9th a man taps on the door, or window, of a woman sleeping...a woman that he is intimate with at times, but does not have the ability to come and go, in this room, as he pleases. Perhaps this woman had performed some sex act before sleeping, or not, but the room, and her, smell of "man". She knows why he is here, and isnt in any mood to have to make him feel wanted right now, so "oh-murder" is just before, "its so late"....which is almost whispered, and said when she is facing back into the room, having turned immediately from the silouette in the doorway surrounded by backlight from the gas lamp across the way, and shuffled back towards her bed....she leaves some room for the visitor to slide in bed behind her.

My bet is that had she said nothing to anger the man, or if he hadnt been there specifically to kill her, or got the impulse while there, she might have woken up Mayors Day with Joe Fleming.

All the best for the Holidays y'all.
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  #13  
Old 12-22-2008, 08:53 AM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
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Ah! I know where I've seen this before: Oliver Twist!

Fleming is Bill Sykes. Mary Jane Kelly is none other than Nancy, with Bet being played by Maria Harvey. Fagin is of course, John McCarthy. Maybe the rumor of MJK having a son is an allusion to Oliver himself?
Mike
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2008, 05:23 PM
perrymason
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Good Michael View Post
Ah! I know where I've seen this before: Oliver Twist!

Fleming is Bill Sykes. Mary Jane Kelly is none other than Nancy, with Bet being played by Maria Harvey. Fagin is of course, John McCarthy. Maybe the rumor of MJK having a son is an allusion to Oliver himself?
Mike
Since Im sure the above refers to the fact that both stories are plausibly constructed using data that is known from the period in question,.....

Dramatic or not, Mary Jane was in at least a love triangle,.. hell, it may have been an octagon for all we know, one of her known lovers at the time of her death will within a few years be institutionalized for life, One lover had recently been asked to move out, perhaps another denied the opportunity to move in. Both men gave her money.

When Barnett gave her money while living there, it was to try and pay some of at least his share of the rent, and when he comes to give her money now, its on that premise,.. for the arrears or to live on without going "selling herself".

What do you think Joe Fleming gets for his coins? Maybe the ability to knock on her window and get let in late at night sometimes? And isnt that one of a few very plausible suggestions as to how the killer met up with Mary that night?

"Plausible" would mean that the story should be founded on some evidence at least. Since there is no trustworthy evidence that she left, he gets in the room somehow, without Mary screaming bloody murder, instead perhaps just a "faintish" "oh-murder".

Cheers Baronator, Happy Holidays.
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  #15  
Old 12-22-2008, 05:38 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Michael writes:

"What do you think Joe Fleming gets for his coins? Maybe the ability to knock on her window and get let in late at night sometimes? And isnt that one of a few very plausible suggestions as to how the killer met up with Mary that night?"

Since you ask, Michael: it truly is!

Happy holidays! Stay well!
Fisherman
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  #16  
Old 12-22-2008, 09:58 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Michael writes:

"What do you think Joe Fleming gets for his coins? Maybe the ability to knock on her window and get let in late at night sometimes? And isnt that one of a few very plausible suggestions as to how the killer met up with Mary that night?"

Since you ask, Michael: it truly is!
How so, Fish? For one thing, I'm not so sure that it's recorded that Joe Fleming gave Kelly money; for another, even if he did, he had lodgings of his own.
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  #17  
Old 12-22-2008, 11:36 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hello folks,
I have been a Barnett man for donkeys years, however my attitude is somewhat changing, and I agree with Michael that a certain Joseph Flemming/fleming [incase Bob is watching] has far better credentials.
We have that old motive Jealously for one, also the mention of him ill-using her, for her association with the other man that shared his christian name.
We have his residence during that autumn at a certain 'Victoria home', which was situated right in the area of all the murders.
But most important of all we have the insanity, and a description of his mania.
A jealous insane man, and the Ripper murders ending with the death of Mjk, this individual has to be one major candidate, and should be investigated with every resource one can.
Regards Richard.
Merry xmas all.
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  #18  
Old 12-23-2008, 01:24 AM
perrymason
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
How so, Fish? For one thing, I'm not so sure that it's recorded that Joe Fleming gave Kelly money; for another, even if he did, he had lodgings of his own.
I cant recall which of Marys friends mentions it Sam, but logic dictates it was either Julia or Maria, Barnett wouldnt have said it, nor would anyone who knew her less well than those two women.

Lodgings of his own implies he was seeking shelter, I think we both know better than that if it was he who showed up at 3:45am "ish" in Millers Court...his bed at the Victoria Home, which according to Ben he wasnt even registered at, ..wouldnt be as inviting as the one in Millers Court, cause it also had a 26 year old partially dressed woman in that one.

Best regards Sam.
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  #19  
Old 12-23-2008, 01:40 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perrymason View Post
I cant recall which of Marys friends mentions [Fleming giving Mary money]...
...neither can I, Mike We have Barnett testifying that he gave Mary what money he had, and Hutchinson claiming to having given her some shillings on occasion. Apart from that, all I can recall Fleming's (or "another man named Joe", to be more faithful to Julia Venturney's testimony) being said to have given Mary is some "ill-use" now and then.
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  #20  
Old 12-23-2008, 02:14 AM
perrymason
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
...neither can I, Mike We have Barnett testifying that he gave Mary what money he had, and Hutchinson claiming to having given her some shillings on occasion. Apart from that, all I can recall Fleming's (or "another man named Joe", to be more faithful to Julia Venturney's testimony) being said to have given Mary is some "ill-use" now and then.
Now that youve mentioned that, Im, fairly certain were talking about a press interview with Julia. Which one might take time,...Ill get back to you.

I do feel Ill find a quote, Im fairly sure...but what actual value it may have, is out of my hands.

All the best Sam.
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