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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #11  
Old 12-10-2015, 12:44 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Hi Fisherman,

Another connection with 1873! I do like your suggestions. Now, time to ponder them. The lion's share of Kahn's Venuses went to his museums in the US, but Tussauds was also the recipient of many specimens. Of course, the Whitechapel wax museum was shielding themselves from the 1857 Obscene Act by claiming to be another Tussauds.

Sincerely,

Mike
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2015, 01:20 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklhawley View Post
Hi Fisherman,

Another connection with 1873! I do like your suggestions. Now, time to ponder them. The lion's share of Kahn's Venuses went to his museums in the US, but Tussauds was also the recipient of many specimens. Of course, the Whitechapel wax museum was shielding themselves from the 1857 Obscene Act by claiming to be another Tussauds.

Sincerely,

Mike
So there is every chance that there was a Venus in Thomas Street! Not that it is a deciding factor, but it is nevertheless interesting!

I found this in "The Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine":

The surviving accounts of visits to anatomy museums, written by relatively well-educated middle class Victorian men, portray them as a harmless day out. Most of the visitors to Kahn's museum were working class and we can only guess at their range of experiences: exhibits that provoked laughter among men about town may have brought a blush to the cheeks of the less worldly. Some young people probably learned the facts of life there and many more would have obtained a better understanding of matters sexual.


Mostly working class, thus - providing a very comprehensive explanation to how just about any Eastender could have gotten a little bit of anatomical insights. Carmen in their early twenties, for example...

How do you look on the proposition that the Ripper and the Torso killer would have been one and the same? Such a suggestion has been forbidden territory for the longest, but I think that the find of the abdominal flap thing (dug up by Debra Arif) means that it must be the by far better suggestion.
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  #13  
Old 12-10-2015, 01:25 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklhawley View Post
Hi Fisherman,

Another connection with 1873! I do like your suggestions. Now, time to ponder them. The lion's share of Kahn's Venuses went to his museums in the US, but Tussauds was also the recipient of many specimens. Of course, the Whitechapel wax museum was shielding themselves from the 1857 Obscene Act by claiming to be another Tussauds.

Sincerely,

Mike
A few points from reading your article earlier.

1) Anthony Comstock - you probably heard of this "Crusader against Vice". Comstock actually was an early anti-abortionist and planned parenthood advocate. His targets ran from the notorious New York City based "Madame Restell" (whom he drove into suicide in 1878 - making his reputation black for a number of years, though he later felt that his actions doing that to a number of abortionists were badges of honor) to Margaret Sanger. He attacked artwork he felt offended public morals, once making an assault on a respect N.Y.C. art group for showing a picture where there was the figure of a naked man that was less than three inches tall at the end of a pier about to jump into a river on a summer day. There were plenty of other figures that were larger and closer up but Comstock jumped on that. He annoyed the theater community attacking those pornographic filth mongers from Europe Ibsen and Shaw (Bernard Shaw was bemused by Comstock's dislike for "Mrs. Warren's Profession, about the economic side of being a bordello owner, and created the term "Comstockery" to belittle the man and his followers - and Americans in general for not putting the fellow in his place). He remained fairly active until his death in 1915. There was a biography I read about him that was co-authored by Heywood Hale Sr. in the 1920s.

2) Fate of the Prazzini wax statue of Tussaud's: I went to the London Tussaud's in 1992, and saw the "Chambre of Horrors". Interestingly they had Crippen, Christie, and one of the Ripper victims there, but no Prazzini. A family friend who was at an earlier exhibition building in London in 1965 brought back a pamphlet that listed a statue for Prazzini as extant then. Tussaud's has a storage facility when they "retire" old statues from the museum. I'm not sure where it is, but perhaps you can locate it and you can see the statue.

Jeff
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  #14  
Old 12-10-2015, 01:41 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Moving on, here s a snippet or two from a (rather odd and richly illustrated and by an insane author, no less...!) website about anatomical venuses:

https://wereallmadinhere.wordpress.c...tomical-venus/

Nevertheless, the models usually had very beautiful features, and sometimes they were placed in oddly sensual positions. The contrast between esthetic attraction and repulsion is quite strange… and to me, quite enticing also.

...and...

There just is something about seeing a beautiful woman with her skin peeled back and her organs spread out on the table that sends a tingle of delight over my skin…


So, sensually posed, and with the pedagogic dimension of offering a possibility to take all the organs out (they were loose and meant to be picked out and put back in again) and strew them around the emptied wax body, like for example on a table...

Can this be a mere coincidence? Im flabbergasted!

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-10-2015 at 01:44 PM.
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  #15  
Old 12-10-2015, 01:43 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayerling View Post
A few points from reading your article earlier.

1) Anthony Comstock - you probably heard of this "Crusader against Vice". Comstock actually was an early anti-abortionist and planned parenthood advocate. His targets ran from the notorious New York City based "Madame Restell" (whom he drove into suicide in 1878 - making his reputation black for a number of years, though he later felt that his actions doing that to a number of abortionists were badges of honor) to Margaret Sanger. He attacked artwork he felt offended public morals, once making an assault on a respect N.Y.C. art group for showing a picture where there was the figure of a naked man that was less than three inches tall at the end of a pier about to jump into a river on a summer day. There were plenty of other figures that were larger and closer up but Comstock jumped on that. He annoyed the theater community attacking those pornographic filth mongers from Europe Ibsen and Shaw (Bernard Shaw was bemused by Comstock's dislike for "Mrs. Warren's Profession, about the economic side of being a bordello owner, and created the term "Comstockery" to belittle the man and his followers - and Americans in general for not putting the fellow in his place). He remained fairly active until his death in 1915. There was a biography I read about him that was co-authored by Heywood Hale Sr. in the 1920s.

2) Fate of the Prazzini wax statue of Tussaud's: I went to the London Tussaud's in 1992, and saw the "Chambre of Horrors". Interestingly they had Crippen, Christie, and one of the Ripper victims there, but no Prazzini. A family friend who was at an earlier exhibition building in London in 1965 brought back a pamphlet that listed a statue for Prazzini as extant then. Tussaud's has a storage facility when they "retire" old statues from the museum. I'm not sure where it is, but perhaps you can locate it and you can see the statue.

Jeff
There's research angles here, Jeff. Thank you!

Mike
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  #16  
Old 12-10-2015, 01:52 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
So there is every chance that there was a Venus in Thomas Street! Not that it is a deciding factor, but it is nevertheless interesting!

I found this in "The Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine":

The surviving accounts of visits to anatomy museums, written by relatively well-educated middle class Victorian men, portray them as a harmless day out. Most of the visitors to Kahn's museum were working class and we can only guess at their range of experiences: exhibits that provoked laughter among men about town may have brought a blush to the cheeks of the less worldly. Some young people probably learned the facts of life there and many more would have obtained a better understanding of matters sexual.


Mostly working class, thus - providing a very comprehensive explanation to how just about any Eastender could have gotten a little bit of anatomical insights. Carmen in their early twenties, for example...

How do you look on the proposition that the Ripper and the Torso killer would have been one and the same? Such a suggestion has been forbidden territory for the longest, but I think that the find of the abdominal flap thing (dug up by Debra Arif) means that it must be the by far better suggestion.
I want to study the Torso killer angle more, but this is awesome.

So Fisherman, my publisher is hinting that they will be publishing before my speaking engagement at the Rip conference in April. Now, the wax museum stuff is not part of my presentation, but it is in my book. I have some more info, but I have to be careful before publishing (I think). I have no connection with the Torso murders, so anything you find, I will pass on anything I've found!

Sincerely,

Mike
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  #17  
Old 12-10-2015, 01:58 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I am sending you a personal message, Mike.
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2015, 02:00 PM
Howard Brown Howard Brown is offline
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Jeff:
The article you referred to about the General's wife & Pranzini was in the July 19, 1887 edition of the Pall Mall Gazette.
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  #19  
Old 12-10-2015, 05:37 PM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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This is an intriguing subject, and although I wouldn't describe Jack as a copycat killer I'm sure he did take some interest in the Pranzini murders of the year before. (Interesting isn't it that the Paris Morgue always photographed the bodies it received?)

If Jack had visited Kahn's museum prior to its closure in London in 1873 he would have been very young wouldn't he, if he was in his late 20's in 1888, as some descriptions suggest?

With regard to these 'anotomical Venuses' I have read that prior to the closure of these museums (and afterwards) smaller versions of these models were on sale to the general public via market stalls and the like. Perhaps the Ripper availed himself of the opportunity and had a look at female internal organs before proceeding on?
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  #20  
Old 12-10-2015, 05:57 PM
mklhawley mklhawley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Brown View Post
Jeff:
The article you referred to about the General's wife & Pranzini was in the July 19, 1887 edition of the Pall Mall Gazette.
I am not surprised at all that you found it, Howard!

Sincerely,

Mike
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