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  #1191  
Old 04-05-2015, 04:45 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers
Maybe he did grab his victims near the dock. Some of the torso's were never positively identified, i.e Pinchin and Whitehall. Maybe his pals were working the east-end at the same time.

I'll re-post this Ripper Letter only to illustrate my point, not that I'm convinced it is authentic:

Daily News
United Kingdom
5 October 1888

"3 October.
Dear Boss *
Since last, splendid success. Two more and never a squeal. Oh, I am master of the art! I am going to be heavy on the guilded * now, we are. Some dutchess will cut up nicely, and the lace will show nicely. You wonder how. Oh, we are masters. No education like a butcher's. No animal like a nice woman * the fat are best. On to Brighton for a holiday, but we shan't idle * splendid high class women there. My mouth waters * good luck there. If
not, you will hear from me in West end. My pal will keep on at the east a while yet. When I get a nobility * I will send it on to C. Warren, or perhaps to you for a keepsake. O, it is jolly.
George of the High Rip Gang.
Red ink still, but a drop of the real stuff in it."


The nobility comment is interesting. It sounds like the "it" refers to a body or torso. He's admittedly working the west-end, where most of the torso's and parts were discovered. Then he claims his pal will keep on at the east end. This explains the different signatures. Although Pinchin Street torso was a cross between the two; dismemberment of body parts (arms were left attached), abdomen mutilation yet found on the east end.

Notice the end of the letter, blame goes to George of the High Rip gang. I noted the similar blame game in all the graffitti written around town on another thread.

Last edited by jerryd : 04-05-2015 at 04:47 PM.
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  #1192  
Old 04-05-2015, 05:58 PM
Errata Errata is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers
Plus there's some hilarious physics problems with swinging an axe standing in a tiny row boat... and how weird is it to get into a boat with a perfect stranger? Did that even happen?
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  #1193  
Old 04-05-2015, 06:10 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Plus there's some hilarious physics problems with swinging an axe standing in a tiny row boat... and how weird is it to get into a boat with a perfect stranger? Did that even happen?
So that's how Druitt ended up in the Swanee, his axe went through the bottom of the boat...
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  #1194  
Old 04-05-2015, 07:20 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
Plus there's some hilarious physics problems with swinging an axe standing in a tiny row boat... and how weird is it to get into a boat with a perfect stranger? Did that even happen?
I know you & I have talked about this but since Jackson was sleeping on the embankment maybe it's not a stretch to kill her and get her on to a boat. I believe someone tried to rob Jackson near the thames in the days before her murder maybe it's connected.
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  #1195  
Old 04-05-2015, 07:57 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
So that's how Druitt ended up in the Swanee, his axe went through the bottom of the boat...
Great idea, but was he just collecting stones?
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  #1196  
Old 04-05-2015, 08:51 PM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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What if there were a couple of males working in unison, one with a boat, one with access to a cart? Both cart and boat may have had to be used at certain times when the men were working at their everyday jobs.
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  #1197  
Old 04-06-2015, 09:54 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Not that I believe it relates in any meaningful way to the Ripper investigations, but that is a thought provoking thought for the Torso killer John, .....creative.

The reason I see clear Ripper distinctions between the 2 is simple, if he had the boat all along why not lure or grab all his victims near the docks?

Cheers
Hello Michael,

Thanks. Of course there were other differences in MO/ signature. For instance, JtR didn't scatter body parts or use disposal sites- his victims where left where they were killed. I think this was an important component of the Torso killer's signature, i.e. possibly done for the purposes of shock value and in order to taunt the police- the Scotland Yard Torso/ Whitehall Mystery is, of course, also consistent with the latter hypothesis.

Dr Phillips was also asked by the coroner if he thought that the there were similarities between MJK and the Pinchin Street Torso. Although he only had partial notes with him he concluded that the Torso killer had been more deliberate in the cutting up of the body and had shown a greater knowledge and degree of skill, i.e. as regards the separation of the joints. And whereas the mutilations in respect of MJK were "wanton", in the latter case they were probably done for purposes of disposing of the body.

Of course, the first Torso Murders appear to have taken place in Battersea, 1873, and Putney, 1874. Therefore, if this series is connected to JtR then the vast majority of suspects are clearly ruled out on age grounds!

Last edited by John G : 04-06-2015 at 10:06 AM.
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  #1198  
Old 04-01-2018, 05:14 AM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
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I am pretty certain that Jack killed six victims- the sixth being Martha Tabrum. The way in which the victims were killed is much the same- throats cut and mutilations, apart from Stride, as I believe the Ripper was disturbed. Because of the varying discrepencies of what the Ripper was wearing when he carried out the crimes as per different descriptions, I think the Ripper was able to change his hat and coat before he carried out each murder.
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  #1199  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Hello again,

Actually a bit surprised my id is still active. I'm glad, because I wanted to add something to this discussion. The disposition of the killer(s) can be partially exposed by examining the types of wounds made. There are only 2 murders within just the Canonical Group that reveal a clinical, calculated disposition. It would seem that at least 1 of these performed actions that most efficiently enabled the ultimate objective. One could not say that in the case of Mary Kelly, for example. Nor is tracing around a navel and severing colon very efficient, although I believe that an argument could be made that Kates kidney, or any internal organ from the female abdomen, was one of a few possible ultimate objectives.

Martha Tabram was killed by someone emotionally responding to the situation, and someone who lacked self control at the time. Liz Strides killer sought to end her life. That seems about the extent of his interests there. I feel that there is an argument that could be used when pairing Polly with Annie, that the extent of the latter injuries was a reflection of the venue and perceived privacy, and that Pollys abdominal injuries indicate a pm focus on that region. But for all intent and purpose, the Victimology, the Methodology and the skills, proclivities and the abilities of the killer were virtually identical.

The Torsos were a randomly occurring event, one that preceded the Fall of Terror, and suggest a killer who took time with his victims the Phantom Menace wouldn't even dream of.

Knives, wounds, street women, time of day...all relevant to the argument as to whether a true series existed there, sure. The commonalities are not sufficient by themselves to suggest pattern. Considering these were ghetto conditions with an abundance of ready prey on the streets all night, "Ripper" murders were almost predictable.
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