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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I agree, although - as you know - the whole area is so compact that virtually all the canonical murder sites were "close to home". I have little doubt that he was based somewhere in the immediate vicinity.
    I agree with that, Sam. I'm not proposing or subscribing to anything. Just presenting it as is. As well, I enjoy exercises such as this.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
      "Home" is perhaps too literal; a rented room, a place of refuge, somewhere only he has access to, must be included. He may actually live elsewhere.
      Unlikely, in my opinion, to be consistent with a 'dosser' as the murderer.

      With regards to this thread, I'm not convinced Tabram was a Ripper victim.
      Agreed. Didn't intend "home" to be literal. "Home" = some place the killer had some connection to. I agree, as well, that the killer was unlikely to have lived in a common lodging house.

      Comment


      • #18
        With respect to Tabram being a victim of Jack the Ripper, "convinced" is a strong word. My personal belief is that she likely was killed by the same person who killed one or more of the five "canonical" victims. Just as I believe - but am not convinced that its likely that one man killed Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, I would not go so far as to say that I'm "convinced".

        Along those lines, if one feels Tabram was the random act of a soldier or whomever, the distances are interesting (as are the idle days following the respective murders) when applied to the spot upon which Eddowes' apron was found outside Wentworth Model Dwellings in Goulston Street.

        Nichols was killed on August 31, 1,132 yards from that spot, and the killer was idle for only 7 days. Buck's Row is further from Goulston Street than any of the other murder sites and 7 days is the fewest between murders (excepting the double event) in the series.

        Chapman was killed on September 9, 496 yards from Goulston Street, and the killer was idle for 21 days.

        Stride and Eddowes are killed on September 30. Berner Street is 816 yards from Goulston Street, Mitre Square is 409 yards from the spot outside Wentworth Model Dwellings where a piece of Eddowes Apron would be found roughly an hour after her murder. To this point, Mitre Square is closer site to Goulston Street - by nearly 100 yards - than any previous. The killer is idle for 39 days, the most days the killer is idle.

        Kelly is killed on November 9. Miller's Court is only 209 yards from Goulston Street - roughly half the distance than the previous closest site in Mitre Square. If one subscribes to the canonical list, the killer takes no further victims in the East End.

        Looking for patterns, it may be reasonable to suspect that the killer lived very near that spot where Eddowes' apron was found in Goulston Street. It may be reasonable to suspect, as well, that the killer's periods of idleness may have been tied to the level of police scrutiny focused upon the immediate area in which he lived (worked, operated from, etc.). The closer to "home" he killed, the more police activity and enquiry focused around his "doorstep", the longer he's idle.

        As well, the pattern may indicate that the killer searched for victims further from Goulston Street if the previous victim had been taken nearer to it (thus attracting the aforementioned police enquiry). If Tabram is included, an interesting narrative might be built. Let's suspend disbelief for a moment and pretend that the killer lived in the Wentworth Model Dwellings, 108-119....

        On August 7, 1888, our killer, let's call him.....let's see....let's call him Jack! Jack kills Martha Tabram in George Yard Buildings, only 273 yards from his home in Goulston Street. Police presence in the area around his home is increased. Perhaps they knocked on his door and made enquiry of him. As a result, he's inactive for three weeks.

        Perhaps Jack's been out searching for a victim for a few days now. Perhaps a week. Police activity has died down but he doesn't want to again bring attention directly to his doorstep. So, he goes further afield and he finds Nichols 1,132 yards from his home. He does for her, makes off without a trace, the police are making enquiry around Buck's Row. This may have been the most successful killing in the series. No one seems to have seen or heard much, if anything. As a result, Jack is inactive for only seven days.

        Things having gone so well in Buck's Row he finds himself more comfortable. A lesser amount of police activity near his home after Nichols has him searching for a victim nearer to Goulston Street. He kills Chapman on September 8, only 496 yards from his home. But, Jack may have been seen (Long). He may have been heard (Cadosh). The police are again making enquiry close by, though not as closely as after Tabram. Jack is reminded of how smoothly things went after Buck's Row, a bit further from Goulston Street. So, a bit spooked, he lays low, again, for around three weeks.

        On September 30, Jack kills Stride in Berner Street, 816 yards from his home. Alas, Diemschutz and his horse happen along and drive him off before he's through. He heads home. But, it's still early and the streets around there are quiet. So he heads over to, say, St. Boltoph's, less than 500 yards from his rooms at Wentworth Dwellings. He meets Eddowes there. They retire to Mitre Square. Jack does his thing, killing Eddowes only 409 yards from home. He makes his way toward home but there is heavy police presence that night. He's worried a few fellows may have seen him and his lady friend near Church Passage. Eddowes is found and the alarm is raised almost immediately. He has to duck into a dark corner, a bolt hole, somewhere. He hides for an eternity. An hour. He makes it home NOT stopping to feed his other passion - Graffiti art, but in a rush he drops the keepsakes he'd taken from Eddowes on the pavement. He picks them up but leaves the portion of apron in which he'd carried them away. PC Long finds it moments later. The police are everywhere, he's hauled out of his home and interviewed. His rooms are searched. His neighbors are interviewed. It's a long night. A long week. Spooked he vows never to do it again. He does okay. For a while. He doesn't kill again for more than a month. 39 days. Alas, in the words of the inimitable Jeffrey Lebowski, he's "gotta feed the monkey!".

        On November 9, Jack's still trying to keep it together. He's out for a few pints near home. He meets Mary Kelly in The Brittania, maybe The Ten Bells. She's drunk. She tells him that she has her own rooms. They go to her place. It's only 209 yards from his place. Too close. He remember what he went through after Mitre Square, after dropping the apron. But the opportunity is too good to pass up. Young woman. Privacy. He kills her and spends the next few hours with her body.

        After Kelly, things get so hot around Goulston Street he decides to hang up his knife and leather apron. He's scared straight. Or maybe he moved to New York? Argentia? New Orleans? He went back to his paining? His writing? Threw himself into the Thames? Got himself poisoned by his wife but wrote a really cool diary? I don't know. It needs some work..... I'll come up with something.

        Comment


        • #19
          Brilliant, Patrick I'd take Stride out, as I'm far from convinced she was a Ripper victim, but that really doesn't make a difference to your argument, which I find quite plausible overall.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
            With respect to Tabram being a victim of Jack the Ripper, "convinced" is a strong word. My personal belief is that she likely was killed by the same person who killed one or more of the five "canonical" victims. Just as I believe - but am not convinced that its likely that one man killed Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, I would not go so far as to say that I'm "convinced".

            Along those lines, if one feels Tabram was the random act of a soldier or whomever, the distances are interesting (as are the idle days following the respective murders) when applied to the spot upon which Eddowes' apron was found outside Wentworth Model Dwellings in Goulston Street.

            Nichols was killed on August 31, 1,132 yards from that spot, and the killer was idle for only 7 days. Buck's Row is further from Goulston Street than any of the other murder sites and 7 days is the fewest between murders (excepting the double event) in the series.

            Chapman was killed on September 9, 496 yards from Goulston Street, and the killer was idle for 21 days.

            Stride and Eddowes are killed on September 30. Berner Street is 816 yards from Goulston Street, Mitre Square is 409 yards from the spot outside Wentworth Model Dwellings where a piece of Eddowes Apron would be found roughly an hour after her murder. To this point, Mitre Square is closer site to Goulston Street - by nearly 100 yards - than any previous. The killer is idle for 39 days, the most days the killer is idle.

            Kelly is killed on November 9. Miller's Court is only 209 yards from Goulston Street - roughly half the distance than the previous closest site in Mitre Square. If one subscribes to the canonical list, the killer takes no further victims in the East End.

            Looking for patterns, it may be reasonable to suspect that the killer lived very near that spot where Eddowes' apron was found in Goulston Street. It may be reasonable to suspect, as well, that the killer's periods of idleness may have been tied to the level of police scrutiny focused upon the immediate area in which he lived (worked, operated from, etc.). The closer to "home" he killed, the more police activity and enquiry focused around his "doorstep", the longer he's idle.

            As well, the pattern may indicate that the killer searched for victims further from Goulston Street if the previous victim had been taken nearer to it (thus attracting the aforementioned police enquiry). If Tabram is included, an interesting narrative might be built. Let's suspend disbelief for a moment and pretend that the killer lived in the Wentworth Model Dwellings, 108-119....

            On August 7, 1888, our killer, let's call him.....let's see....let's call him Jack! Jack kills Martha Tabram in George Yard Buildings, only 273 yards from his home in Goulston Street. Police presence in the area around his home is increased. Perhaps they knocked on his door and made enquiry of him. As a result, he's inactive for three weeks.

            Perhaps Jack's been out searching for a victim for a few days now. Perhaps a week. Police activity has died down but he doesn't want to again bring attention directly to his doorstep. So, he goes further afield and he finds Nichols 1,132 yards from his home. He does for her, makes off without a trace, the police are making enquiry around Buck's Row. This may have been the most successful killing in the series. No one seems to have seen or heard much, if anything. As a result, Jack is inactive for only seven days.

            Things having gone so well in Buck's Row he finds himself more comfortable. A lesser amount of police activity near his home after Nichols has him searching for a victim nearer to Goulston Street. He kills Chapman on September 8, only 496 yards from his home. But, Jack may have been seen (Long). He may have been heard (Cadosh). The police are again making enquiry close by, though not as closely as after Tabram. Jack is reminded of how smoothly things went after Buck's Row, a bit further from Goulston Street. So, a bit spooked, he lays low, again, for around three weeks.

            On September 30, Jack kills Stride in Berner Street, 816 yards from his home. Alas, Diemschutz and his horse happen along and drive him off before he's through. He heads home. But, it's still early and the streets around there are quiet. So he heads over to, say, St. Boltoph's, less than 500 yards from his rooms at Wentworth Dwellings. He meets Eddowes there. They retire to Mitre Square. Jack does his thing, killing Eddowes only 409 yards from home. He makes his way toward home but there is heavy police presence that night. He's worried a few fellows may have seen him and his lady friend near Church Passage. Eddowes is found and the alarm is raised almost immediately. He has to duck into a dark corner, a bolt hole, somewhere. He hides for an eternity. An hour. He makes it home NOT stopping to feed his other passion - Graffiti art, but in a rush he drops the keepsakes he'd taken from Eddowes on the pavement. He picks them up but leaves the portion of apron in which he'd carried them away. PC Long finds it moments later. The police are everywhere, he's hauled out of his home and interviewed. His rooms are searched. His neighbors are interviewed. It's a long night. A long week. Spooked he vows never to do it again. He does okay. For a while. He doesn't kill again for more than a month. 39 days. Alas, in the words of the inimitable Jeffrey Lebowski, he's "gotta feed the monkey!".

            On November 9, Jack's still trying to keep it together. He's out for a few pints near home. He meets Mary Kelly in The Brittania, maybe The Ten Bells. She's drunk. She tells him that she has her own rooms. They go to her place. It's only 209 yards from his place. Too close. He remember what he went through after Mitre Square, after dropping the apron. But the opportunity is too good to pass up. Young woman. Privacy. He kills her and spends the next few hours with her body.

            After Kelly, things get so hot around Goulston Street he decides to hang up his knife and leather apron. He's scared straight. Or maybe he moved to New York? Argentia? New Orleans? He went back to his paining? His writing? Threw himself into the Thames? Got himself poisoned by his wife but wrote a really cool diary? I don't know. It needs some work..... I'll come up with something.
            Hi Patrick
            interesting ideas but I don't think a killer as streetwise, crafty and perceptive enough to never be caught, sometimes skidaddling just in the nick of time, and someone who never left any clues at the scene of the crimes would be stupid or careless enough to leave incriminating evidence on his door step.

            However, I agree with the general idea that he lived very close by.

            in terms of the lag period between murders and what it means-not sure if we can make much of it as he probably wasn't successful every time he went out hunting.

            The only significance in a lag time I possibly see is the long period between Kelly and Mackenzie (who you didn't include here but I think was definitely a ripper victim). THAT long lag time IMHO is because he was scared and wanted to lay low (and also possibly that it was such a satisfying kill it satiated him for a longer period) more so than other murders as it seems to me all things point to him and Kelly knowing each other and hence he may have even come on the polices radar.interviewed even.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Hi Patrick
              interesting ideas but I don't think a killer as streetwise, crafty and perceptive enough to never be caught, sometimes skidaddling just in the nick of time, and someone who never left any clues at the scene of the crimes would be stupid or careless enough to leave incriminating evidence on his door step.

              However, I agree with the general idea that he lived very close by.

              in terms of the lag period between murders and what it means-not sure if we can make much of it as he probably wasn't successful every time he went out hunting.

              The only significance in a lag time I possibly see is the long period between Kelly and Mackenzie (who you didn't include here but I think was definitely a ripper victim). THAT long lag time IMHO is because he was scared and wanted to lay low (and also possibly that it was such a satisfying kill it satiated him for a longer period) more so than other murders as it seems to me all things point to him and Kelly knowing each other and hence he may have even come on the polices radar.interviewed even.
              I don't "believe" in much I've written here. I don't "disbelieve" much of it either. I find patterns and relationships interesting, so I thought I'd share what I saw. In the rare instances I offer hypotheses or scenarios, they're to be taken as being within the "realm of possibility", nothing more. I suspect a few things may be true. I'm convinced of very little. Human events go sidewise. They get tangled. Thus, its often very hard to understand what happened, and why.

              Case in point, I think that it is quite possible that the killer was "lucky", benefiting from the habits of his victims, rather than being "crafty, perceptive, and streetwise". That is to say it was in a prostitute's interests to take clients to locales which afforded them enough privacy to complete the transaction undisturbed. This, obviously, afforded the killer the privacy he required, as well. He benefited from the labyrinth that comprised the streets of the East End. He benefited from what was often the near total darkness of the crime scenes A legendary, evil genius he may have been. His never having been caught may be evidence of that. It may not be. As for the apron. I only know it was left in a doorway from which people now takeaway Fish-and-Chips (not bad, as I did stop off to have some).

              Comment


              • #22
                Pcdunn To Ausgirl

                Interesting questions.

                I wonder if she was already insensible before] she was strangled? Would this be a case of her attacker finding a sleeping or drunk woman and striking while she was particularly vulnerable? Would that account for the lack of signs of struggle? Just a thought

                That is a very good point and something i hadn't considered. The witness Alfred Crow also said it was common to find people sleeping there.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Brilliant, Patrick I'd take Stride out, as I'm far from convinced she was a Ripper victim, but that really doesn't make a difference to your argument, which I find quite plausible overall.
                  Thanks, Sam. I'm not convinced about Stride, either. I'm definitely not proposing a "theory". That's not my game. Just having a bit of fun with a few interesting ideas I had while looking at a few simple data points. I used Wentworth Dwellings as "home" simply because the apron was found there and its distance to other sites can be measured.

                  As an aside, likely signifying nothing.... During my walks through the East End, going from site to site, and coming upon Goulston Street/Wentworth Dwellings/Happy Days Fish and Chips (!), finally experiencing the area physically, being in the space, I was overwhelmed by the feeling that the killer lived very near HERE. Very close to the spot upon which I stood. I'm one who humors such feelings before allowing proper reflection to bring me to my senses. I still suspect that he did live very close by that spot. But, for me, being there, it was something I felt almost palpably. I'm not sure that's a unique experience. But, it's the one I had.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by John G View Post
                    There could have been a number of non-fatal attacks. The first five Yorkshire Ripper victims were attacked over a period of more than 6 months. However, the first three attacks were all non-fatal.
                    Wrong. The attacks were aimed at killing the victims.

                    Cheers, Pierre

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      [QUOTE=Patrick S;426052]

                      I'm not convinced about Stride, either.
                      Hi Patrick,

                      What problems and what possibilities do you think the murder site of Stride implied for mutilations of the Chapman- and Eddowes-types, compared to Hanbury Street and Mitre Square?

                      Pierre

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                        Wrong. The attacks were aimed at killing the victims.

                        Cheers, Pierre
                        Wrong. Johng was only commenting on that they were non fatal-not about any aim of the killer.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
                          Thanks, Sam. I'm not convinced about Stride, either. I'm definitely not proposing a "theory". That's not my game. Just having a bit of fun with a few interesting ideas I had while looking at a few simple data points. I used Wentworth Dwellings as "home" simply because the apron was found there and its distance to other sites can be measured.

                          As an aside, likely signifying nothing.... During my walks through the East End, going from site to site, and coming upon Goulston Street/Wentworth Dwellings/Happy Days Fish and Chips (!), finally experiencing the area physically, being in the space, I was overwhelmed by the feeling that the killer lived very near HERE. Very close to the spot upon which I stood. I'm one who humors such feelings before allowing proper reflection to bring me to my senses. I still suspect that he did live very close by that spot. But, for me, being there, it was something I felt almost palpably. I'm not sure that's a unique experience. But, it's the one I had.
                          I got the same feeling the first time I learned Hutchinson was lurking outside Kellys home in the middle of the night.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Pierre;426071]
                            Originally posted by Patrick S View Post



                            Hi Patrick,

                            What problems and what possibilities do you think the murder site of Stride implied for mutilations of the Chapman- and Eddowes-types, compared to Hanbury Street and Mitre Square?

                            Pierre
                            I suspect you have thoughts on it that you're dying to share, and you're asking in order to elicit an answer that will allow you to publish a treatise that elevates you, criticizes my thinking and process, my interpretation of sources, and whatever else gets you off. Tell you what, why don't we just pretend you hijacked this thread and say you did?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              [QUOTE=Patrick S;426075]
                              Originally posted by Pierre View Post

                              I suspect you have thoughts on it that you're dying to share, and you're asking in order to elicit an answer that will allow you to publish a treatise that elevates you, criticizes my thinking and process, my interpretation of sources, and whatever else gets you off. Tell you what, why don't we just pretend you hijacked this thread and say you did?
                              Why the hostility, Patrick? I am sincerely interested in your thinking, since you are not convinced about Stride.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                [QUOTE=Pierre;426081]
                                Originally posted by Patrick S View Post

                                Why the hostility, Patrick? I am sincerely interested in your thinking, since you are not convinced about Stride.
                                No hostility. I'm just not interested in where discussions with you generally go. Let's give it a shot then.

                                If you read closely you'll see that I said I'm not convinced of much. I'm convinced that women were murdered in the London's East End in summer/autumn 1888. I'm convinced that no one was ever charged with the murders. I may feel as if a thing happened in a certain way. I may believe certain things are likely to have occurred. But, convinced? You get the idea.

                                I am not convinced Stride was a victim of "Jack the Ripper". But, I believe that she likely was. If I understand your question correctly, I feel as if Dutfield's Yard was consistent with other murder sites, offering more cover than Buck's Row, slightly less than Mitre Square, substantially less than Hanbury Street. Based on what I know of the area around Berner Street it was perhaps the likeliest place for Stride and her client to utilize. I'm of the opinion that Stride likely was familiar with and chose the spot and that it offered sufficient darkness/privacy to allow her to be paid for services rendered. I don't feel as if the shortcomings of Dutfield's Yard caused the killer to abandon his attempts at mutilation. Deimshutz's arrival likely did that.

                                Comment

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