Stabbed in the throat...

[Uncle Jack]

Like Sam suggests, a stab wound, with the right angle of the knife, could create a laceration that would suggest a cut. But I am attending to agree more with the whole cut thing. It would seem the killer stabbed the knife into the flesh about an inch and then began to cut.

Best regards,

Adam

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fish,

But if you examine Killeens protocol of it all...

...you'll note that he deposed, quite specifically, at the inquest, that there were "39 stab wounds", not "38 stab wounds and one cut".

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:

"...you'll note that he deposed, quite specifically, at the inquest, that there were "39 stab wounds", not "38 stab wounds and one cut"."

This, Sam, is just taking your argument for a circular walk. The fact that Killeen spoke of stabs is something that has been brought up by you - and commented on by me. And it does in no way alter the measures of the wound we are speaking about. No matter which way you want to look at it, you end up with a cut-like wound on the abdomen. Whether it came about as the result of a stabbing movement, or as the result of a more deliberate cutting, or anything else that anybody out here wish to put forward as a feasible suggestion, chain-saws, tripping and falling on the blade or remote-controlled voodoo included, is somewhat secondary to the fact that someone put a wound on Martha Tabrams lower abdomen that must have resembled the wounds roaming through the Rippers wet dreams to a very significant extent.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn writes:

"...you'll note that he deposed, quite specifically, at the inquest, that there were "39 stab wounds", not "38 stab wounds and one cut"."

This, Sam, is just taking your argument for a circular walk.

No, it isn't! It's simply reporting what happened! How on earth is that "circular"?

No matter which way you want to look at it, you end up with a cut-like wound on the abdomen. Whether it came about as the result of a stabbing movement, or as the result of a more deliberate cutting...

...it still wasn't mentioned as a "cut" by Killeen, as one among 39 stab wounds. Whether this stab wound was "cutlike" does not make it a cut, in the sense that subsequent Ripper victims undoubtedly were cut, wilfully and extensively, by their killer.

One doesn't need to be "Mr Memory" to understand the Secret of the Thirty-Nine Stabs...

[Fisherman]

It is circular in the fashion that it is an argument that you come back to, in spite of my pointing out that no matter if it was dealt as a stab, it came up with a cut-like wound. I have already given my answer to the factout that Killeen spoke only of stabs!

...and as I write this, I notice that you once more recirculate it, by writing: "...it still wasn't mentioned as a "cut" by Killeen, as one among 39 stab wounds."

"´Cause Killeen said so" is not enough, Sam, at least not to me.
Look at it this way, if you will:

Marta Tabram was killed BEFORE Nichols et al. She received 39 wounds to her body. Killeens first assumptions must have been along the line of "Hmm, here is a woman who has been subjected to a vicious knife attack, probably by a single killer.
That is what statistics will have told him, just as they will have told him that he was to expect all them wounds to have been inflicted by a single blade only.

Now, the fact that he presses the point that TWO blades must have been used, is something that is challenged very often on these boards: "The killer could have wriggled his blade out, making a larger hole in the chest bone" etc. I think this is a useless approach, since Killeen must have used his own imagination to it´s bursting limit to fit the chest wound in with the others. Why? Because logic and statistics dictate that deeds like these are normally carried out with just the one blade, and by just the one offender. But it just did not work this time, since it was beyond doubt to Killeen that two blades really had been used.

The statistical wishful thinking will have, if I am correct, to some extent have applied when it comes to the abdominal wound. Killeen was already facing one wound that he did not like at all, since it deviated from expectations and thus was hard to explain. I think that he simply settled for going with the statistics with that abdominal wound. We have nothing saying that the pointed end of the knife could be discerned it the wound, thus we have no way of telling if it was made from point A to point B, or vice versa. Therefore we can of course speculate that the point of the weapon was NOT readily discernible in the wound, the way it often is with cuts.
That wound stands out like a sore thumb, Sam, and I suspect that Killeen did not like that in the least. Best have it quickly and neatly sorted into the stab department! But thankfully, he did not refrain from telling us where the wound was found and that it was a wound that was very unsimilar to the rest! He did NOT just sort it in with the other stabs, Sam, it was NEVER just one out of 39 stabs!

Now, Sam, I will ask you an academic question, if I may: If Tabram had been killed AFTER the canonical five, do you believe that a tree inch long and one inch deep wound to the lower abdomen would have gone down in history as "probably just another stab"? Of course it would not. The character of that wound combined with the surfce it was inflicted on, urges us to very strongly suspect that the Ripper was the man who caused it.

"One doesn't need to be "Mr Memory" to understand the Secret of the Thirty-Nine Stabs..."

Nice one, Sam! As for the secret of the Thirty-Nine Stabs, I don not think it is all that hard to present a feasible solution to it (Ouch! Did THAT sound ambitious...!?). But since I have an article coming up on it in a few months time, I won´t spill the beans just yet. Let me just say that if my hunch carries any weight at all here, it is very logical that Tabram was the first victim. The character of the deed is such that it could not have been carried out after the canonical deeds, if i read the signs correctly.
The fact that I am taking a swing at you, Sam, is not lead on by a sudden folie de grandeur. I am not competing in any sense, since I fully realize that you have got a superior grip on things. That, however, does not mean that I will yeld a single inch here, because I think that Tabram may very well hold an important key to understanding the Ripper and his later actions. I just hope that we can come back to this discussion afterwards, since I much value your insights and knowledge!

All the best, Sam!
Fisherman

[FrankO]

...it still wasn't mentioned as a "cut" by Killeen, as one among 39 stab wounds. Whether this stab wound was "cutlike" does not make it a cut, in the sense that subsequent Ripper victims undoubtedly were cut, wilfully and extensively, by their killer.

Hi Gareth,

Although it wasn’t explicitly mentioned as a cut, it shouldn’t be forgotten that Tabram’s murder was pre-Nichols & the rest of the victims who had been extensively cut. It’s quite feasible that because it wasn’t an ‘issue’ yet, Killeen didn’t mention it as a cut. Furthermore, it’s obvious that, if the cut-like wound was caused by a nearly missing (side) stab, the motion of the arm causing this wound must have been strikingly different from the motion causing the rest of the wounds, regardless of whether Tabram was standing or lying on her back. Also, there were no other stab wounds to the private parts and the majority of the rest of the wounds seems to have focused on the throat and upper abdomen and left side of the torso. There was just the single cut-like wound to the private part. Therefore, one has to wonder if it wasn’t actually a cut. To me, a cut would be the simple ‘solution’ to this ‘mystery’.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Crossed posts, Frank? Anyways, I could not agree more, which will be clear when you read my post. The timeline is important, as is the physical differences inbetween the stabs and the you-know-what.

The best, Frank!
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Yes, crossed posts indeed, Fisherman! Two minds, one view, eh? At least regarding the subject at hand...

The best!
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Frank,

There was just the single cut-like wound to the private part. Therefore, one has to wonder if it wasn’t actually a cut. To me, a cut would be the simple ‘solution’ to this ‘mystery’.

We need to be a little careful here - recall that Killeen didn't mention "private part(s)" specifically, but "the lower part of the body". That could have been a reference to the genitals, but the wound might equally have been in the groin, somewhere between the navel and the groin, or the buttock, for all we know.

Aside from that, a misdirected or mis-timed stab might easily give the appearance of a cut, at least inasmuch as it might progress through the flesh for a certain distance. This would seem to be an equally simple solution to this mystery, especially when seen in the context of so many other stabs. It strikes me as odd, that 38 nasty stab-wounds were inflicted, only for the killer to change gear and make a single, comparatively small, cut. Not impossible, of course, but nonetheless...

[FrankO]

Hi Gareth,

It strikes me as odd that, out of 39 stabs, 38 nasty stab-wounds were most effectively inflicted (9 in relatively small throat area, one through sternum, piercing the heart!), only for the killer to change gear and make one single ‘miss-stab’ that manages to still hit anyway, and, despite 3 layers of clothes, cause a 1-inch deep wound in precisely the area the killer was obviously interested in, regardless of the question whether the cut-like wound was purposely inflicted like that or not. Especially when one considers that Tabram was a rather plump woman, that there appears to have been little room to move in that small landing, and that no audible or visible signs of a struggle were noted.

What I would be interested in, is knowing how you would envisage this half-miss of a stab. How would it work if she was still standing, how would it work if she was collapsing, how would it work if she was lying on the floor? As long as I have a bit of a hard time imagining how this near-miss worked, it doesn’t seem an equally simple solution to this mystery.

So, to convince me, you’ll have to do a little better than just say that a misdirected or mis-timed stab might easily give the appearance of a cut, because that's not the part I have 'problems' with.

The best, Gareth!
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Frank,

I only pointed out that Killeen never said that there was a "cut" to the "genitals", only a three-inch wound in the lower body. Even if it were a cut, 'tis I who'd have to remain doubtful that the "lower body" was an area in which the killer was obviously interested. I can't see how that could be justified, in the context of his turning the tissues of her neck into a doyley and inflicting 28 further stabs to various other parts - most of which were in the "upper body" regions of the chest and stomach.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I only pointed out that Killeen never said that there was a "cut" to the "genitals", only a three-inch wound in the lower body.

Hi Gareth,

I know that you did, and it's a good thing, too, because by itself it does leave room for doubt. Like I've said on another occasion, I wish people back then had been a little more precise in their reports...

Even if it were a cut, 'tis I who'd have to remain doubtful that the "lower body" was an area in which the killer was obviously interested.

Twasn't because of any wounds inflicted that I say that, it's simply because Tabram's killer very likely turned up her clothes, leaving the lower part of her body exposed and the legs open.

All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Twasn't because of any wounds inflicted that I say that, it's simply because Tabram's killer very likely turned up her clothes, leaving the lower part of her body exposed and the legs open.

If he'd been "on the job" with her just before he flipped his lid, then perhaps he didn't have to, Frank. Of course, a jab in the mons veneris as a parting shot is one thing, but it wouldn't necessarily betray any particular "interest" on his behalf if 90-plus percent of the wounds were inflicted elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong - I'm reasonably agnostic on Tabram (I rate her a degree higher in terms of "canonisation" than Stride, personally), but I am generally cautious of reading too much into things. Must be the male menopause, I guess!

[FrankO]

Hi again Gareth,

If he'd been "on the job" with her just before he flipped his lid, then perhaps he didn't have to, Frank.

Since I believe it was normal procedure to perform 'the job' while standing, and Killeen saw no reason to believe that 'connection' had taken place, I'd think that the chance isn't too big that the skirts being turned up was just the result of services being rendered by Tabram.

Don't get me wrong - I'm reasonably agnostic on Tabram (I rate her a degree higher in terms of "canonisation" than Stride, personally), but I am generally cautious of reading too much into things. Must be the male menopause, I guess!

I reckon it must be the male menopause then, Gareth. But I'm glad to see we agree on Tabram: we both rate her a higher degree than Stride!

Sleep well!
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Since I believe it was normal procedure to perform 'the job' while standing, and Killeen saw no reason to believe that 'connection' had taken place

It may have been normal procedure when all you had was a muddy alleyway, Frank, but I'm not so sure that would apply if you had a clean, flat surface - such as the landing of the stairs - available. Come to think of it, why did Martha go up the stairs onto the landing, when she could have serviced her client standing up in the lobby? "Connection-wise", I suppose Killeen was looking for semen, which need not necessarily have been spilled.

Good night to you, too, Sor