The pail

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Robert St Devil;399504]

If what the pail contained had been case-enlightening, the coroner would have had it presented during his questioning of Dr. Phillips at the inquest. But the contents of the pail are never brought up, so...

Well, Robert, you could also give the opposite hypothesis, i.e. that the contents of the pail were case-enlightening and that they therefore were not discussed at the inquest.

Maybe the transport of the pail to the home of Phillips was connected to Dr Phillips visiting the House of Commons after the murder and Matthews stating that there was an accomplice.

It was probably wound related - the organs on the bed; the liver, to check for poison or alcohol. Part of the wound information to be given at the follow-up. Autopsy information that he needed to gather by examining her organs, but having to safe-guard them at his house against the "mortuary rituals" when receiving a body.

Were not all the remains of Mary Jane Kelly transported to the mortuary at the same time?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

The only source I've found is the Daily News 10th Nov 1888;

"At four o'clock in the afternoon the body was removed from Dorset street to Shoreditch Mortuary, which stands at the back of Shoreditch Church. The mutilated remains were placed in a coarse coffin, which had apparently been used on many previous occasions for the conveyance of the dead, and which was partially covered with a coarse canvas cloth. The straps of the coffin were sealed. The coffin was conveyed in a one horse ordinary furniture van, and was escorted by several constables under Sergeant Betham. A large crowd followed. At the mortuary another throng was waiting to see the coffin transferred to the building. The photographer who had been called in to photograph the room removed his camera from the premises at half past four, and shortly afterwards a detective officer carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body. It was taken to the house of Dr. Phillips, 2 Spital square. The windows of the room where the crime was committed were boarded up and a padlock put on the door. The streets were patrolled by the police all last evening, and no one was allowed to loiter near the place. At night the neighbourhood was a scene of restless excitement and activity, the streets being filled with thousands of idlers, attracted doubtless by morbid curiosity.

Yes. And of course, if some journalist asked what the pail contained, they said "portions of the woman's body". But the body was supposed to be transported to the mortuary. So was the pail containing portions of Kelly´s body?

[Pierre]

I would think that what was in the pail was the excised materials around Mary and what was on the nighttable. They did what is called a "Volte Face" with the remains, a reconstruction if you will, and that's how they determined what was taken from the room.

Yes, and therefore, in order to be able to reconstruct the body of Kelly, the whole body would have been needed at the mortuary. But the pail, if it contained parts of her body, would not make that reconstruction possible. So what did it contain?

[Pierre]

Yes, and therefore, in order to be able to reconstruct the body of Kelly, the whole body would have been needed at the mortuary. But the pail, if it contained parts of her body, would not make that reconstruction possible. So what did it contain?

I am merely a simple historian asking questions.

[Pierre]

The mortuary was a small solid brick building behind St Leonard's Church.
Two experts were on that Vestry Board and Phillips knew that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas..._(toxicologist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gawen_Sutton

This is really interesting.

Mmm. And the house of Phillips was about a ten minutes walk from the mortuary I think. Why not take the pail to the mortuary then, instead of taking it to the house of Phillips?

[Yabs]

Yes, and therefore, in order to be able to reconstruct the body of Kelly, the whole body would have been needed at the mortuary. But the pail, if it contained parts of her body, would not make that reconstruction possible. So what did it contain?

Hi Pierre.
It may be something as simple as Phillips being on the scene for 5 hours or more, so he wanted or needed to go back home and thought he should take the remains for examination.
he possibly had a room dedicated to his practice at home.
he wasn't doing the autopsy until the next day so maybe he wanted to be clear on what was removed from the body before he did the examination to see if any body parts were missing.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Perhaps Dr. Phillips had a refrigerator/ice box at 2 Spital Square.

The mortuary certainly didn't.

Regards,

Simon

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Yabs;399580]

Hi Pierre.
It may be something as simple as Phillips being on the scene for 5 hours or more, so he wanted or needed to go back home and thought he should take the remains for examination.

he possibly had a room dedicated to his practice at home.
he wasn't doing the autopsy until the next day

so maybe he wanted to be clear on what was removed from the body before he did the examination to see if any body parts were missing.

But everything that was removed from the body could not have fitted into one pail.

[Pierre]

Hi All,

Perhaps Dr. Phillips had a refrigerator/ice box at 2 Spital Square.

The mortuary certainly didn't.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

By taking the pail to Phillips house the contents were separated from everyone at the mortuary.

Was that an action without an intention to separate the contents from everyone else or was it an action based on the intention to do so?

If the latter, what could the motive(s) have been?

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;399584]

But everything that was removed from the body could not have fitted into one pail.

Pierre

Assuming a normal not extra large pall you would be correct.,

Perhaps the larger organs like intestines may have been replace in the body cavity Fr course an the smaller organs and tissue, may have gone into the pall.



steve

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Elamarna;399586

Pierre

Assuming a normal not extra large pall you would be correct.,

Yes.

Perhaps the larger organs like intestines may have been replace in the body cavity Fr course an the smaller organs and tissue, may have gone into the pall.

Why would someone, from your medical perspective, have needed to select specific organs, put them in a pail and send them to another place than the mortuary?

And why would they tell the journalists the contents belonged to the body of the woman?

Regards, Pierre

[Simon Wood]

Hi Pierre,

I would suggest that Dr. Phillips' intentions were no more mysterious than a desire to keep whatever was in the pail chilled overnight in a refrigerator/ice box, in readiness for the next day's post mortem.

Regards,

Simon

[Elamarna]

Why would someone, from your medical perspective, have needed to select specific organs, put them in a pail and send them to another place than the mortuary?

No definitive answer, however the intestines are large in size so it may not have been possible to put them back in the body and leave space for anything else, working in the confines of millers court.

The same would apply to putting these organs into a pall, more likely two or three.
One would have to further cut the up, which could have lead to possible problems with what was cut where and by whom.

As for a reason to split, Simon's suggest seems as good as any?

And why would they tell the journalists the contents belonged to the body of the woman?

It seems we do not know if this information was volunteered or gained by asking someone at the scene.


sorry I can offer no more insight.


Steve

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I would suggest that Dr. Phillips' intentions were no more mysterious than a desire to keep whatever was in the pail chilled overnight in a refrigerator/ice box, in readiness for the next day's post mortem.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

But we do not know that Dr. Phillips had a refrigerator or ice box in his house.

So it not an established historical fact, Simon.

We do know, though, that by taking the contents in the pail to Dr. Phillip's house, these contents were indeed separated from everyone in the mortuary and placed in a private house.

That is actually an established historical fact.

So the first suggestion has no value and the second has.

Now, how can we interpret the second historical fact?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Elamarna;399589

No definitive answer, however the intestines are large in size so it may not have been possible to put them back in the body and leave space for anything else, working in the confines of millers court.

But why then take them to Dr. Phillip's private house instead of taking them to the mortuary and put them back into the body where they belonged, if that was what they wanted to do but could not no in Miller´s Court?

Or maybe they did not belong to the body, since they were separated from it?

The same would apply to putting these organs into a pall, more likely two or three.

One would have to further cut the up, which could have lead to possible problems with what was cut where and by whom.

Yes, very problematic and there is no source for it.

As for a reason to split, Simon's suggest seems as good as any?

The world is full of generous suggestions but there are so few data on wich to write a real history about Jack the Ripper. Therefore, we have books written on suggestions.

And I of course expect much more from you, Steve, than referring to suggestions without any data at all.

It seems we do not know if this information was volunteered or gained by asking someone at the scene.

Indeed. We do not know the provenience of the statement. But it sounds as an official statement made by someone who wanted to give the answer that the pail contained portions of the body of the woman. Is that Kelly?

sorry I can offer no more insight.

I am sure you can.

Regards, Pierre