Photo of Mary Kelly?

[vals]

One thing that did strike me as interesting in those pictures is that, often, much is made of comments that Mary Kelly didn't wear a bonnet, as if it was something that made her stand out from the rest of the women around. The image of Mary with her long hair (all Victorian women had long hair) flowing free, sans titfer, is one I read many times on the od threads. None of the women in those pictures is wearing a bonnet, as far as I can see.

I think that sometimes, we forget that when we read witness statements, all we are reading is one half of a converstaion. The fat that 'She didn't wear a bonnet' features in a statement doesn't necessarily mean that it was a particular feature of Mary, that the person being questioned felt they had to mention. It just means that the person taking the statement asked them 'Did she wear a bonnet?' or 'Would she have been wearing a bonnet?' and they said no. As can be seen from the pictures, though - looks like there was a common mode of dress that didn't necessarily include a bonnet - which is probably why much was made of the fact when another victim got herself one!

[Mike Covell]

I have a strange urge for a pear now!!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Brenda,

I doubt that many people have such bad proportions as the rather extreme 'pear' shape. That actually doesn't look like a real person.
Even on those with pear shaped body, the arms are not generally that slender.
Fact is, that the upper arms are one of the best indicators - if a person is plump or stout, this is generally quite often visible on the arms (although the hands and the wrists can remain slender). The same can be said for the thighs, but in Kelly's case those are unfortunately more difficult to estimate because of the mutilations.

Based on several parts on Kelly's body (inlduding the arms, parts of the legs, the shape of the face etc.) I can't for the life of me regard her as buxom or plump in any way. Unless we are here faced with an expression that would mean something different in Victorian England than in our modern age.

All the best

[Celesta]

I find no fault with the two illustrations, but I don't believe the woman on that bed was plump. I agree that a woman can be slender above the waist and have large thighs, or saddle bags. Mary's forearm is too thin for a plump woman. In the diagrams above, the woman on the left, the apple, clearly has larger or chubbier arms than the one on the right, though her arms are firm-looking. I was once a small, 107 pound woman, but I had a large bust and might have, by our standards, have been considered buxom. In fact Mary's forearm was much like my own at her age.

I suggest that a woman with the type of figure that Marilyn Monroe had might be closer to MJK. I don't mean to imply that MJK was a ginger-haired, sexy, bombshell, by any means, so I'm not "romanticizing" her. Monroe had a large bust, full hips, and what made her appealing was her curves, but her arms, neck, and shoulders were not large. Such a woman, if 5' 7" tall might be described as strong enough to a mule to the ground.

[George Hutchinson]

Can I just make it clear one more time that both those photos were taken in 1901, 13 years after MJK was murdered?

Postcards first came into common use in the UK circa 1901 (picture postcards were in use very occasionally, largely in Germany, in the late 1890s). Certainly throughout the entire Edwardian era and beyond, they were hugely popular. They were sent as people would make a phone call or text (or e-mail) today. You would send a postcard to a friend at the other end of town, posting it that morning and have it arrive that afternoon so they knew what time to expect you for tea the next day. You'll find plenty of cards like this. I have many thousands of postcards in my collection now.

PHILIP

[Celesta]

Can I just make it clear one more time that both those photos were taken in 1901, 13 years after MJK was murdered?

Postcards first came into common use in the UK circa 1901 (picture postcards were in use very occasionally, largely in Germany, in the late 1890s). Certainly throughout the entire Edwardian era and beyond, they were hugely popular. They were sent as people would make a phone call or text (or e-mail) today. You would send a postcard to a friend at the other end of town, posting it that morning and have it arrive that afternoon so they knew what time to expect you for tea the next day. You'll find plenty of cards like this. I have many thousands of postcards in my collection now.

PHILIP

What's this in reference to, Philip? Are you referring to my post about posting an ad for photos of the area? No one really expects postcards of Miller's Ct to turn up! PCs became virtually indispensable, I agree. They are most numerous, which is why collectors like you and I end up with nice ones today. Real photos were made into postcards, not uncommonly. What's wrong with the odd professional, or semi-professional photographer wandering about the area taking photos of famous or notorious spots? We know that PCs of Whitechapel and environs turn up on collectors' sites and ebay.

No one realistically expects postcards of #13 to turn up, but the address became notorious and it wouldn't surprise me if photos were made of the site, even years after the murder. I know I would have wanted to take a photo.

I guess I'm wondering which post you're referring to. We know the photos posted here date to years after all the women were dead, so I can't see what else you're referring to.

Anyway, you're expert on pix of the area. Your point's well taken, and I agree with you.

Celesta

[Sam Flynn]

I suggest that a woman with the type of figure that Marilyn Monroe had might be closer to MJK.

...that's exactly what I envisage too, Celesta, and what I meant by "not fat but well-insulated".

[Celesta]

...that's exactly what I envisage too, Celesta, and what I meant by "not fat but well-insulated".

Yeah, I thought that's what was in your mind. Thanks, Sam.

[Observer]

What is particularly fun is that they were both taken for George R Sims' 1901 epic LIVING LONDON, by which time all the women had been dead for 13 years.

PHILIP

Hi Philip


If you look at the first sentence in my post (#1) then you’ll see I did say “to be taken with a pinch of salt. But even if those photos did appear in George R Sims' 1901 epic LIVING LONDON, who’s to say they weren’t old stock, and were actually taken in 1888?

Observer

[Observer]

Mind you.........if we're going down this road/street....there is a certain similarity here I suppose...
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[ATTACH]812[/ATTACH]

Hi Suzi

There seems to be some confusion here

The two women who you ringed are the one’s that I proposed were one and the same. I also maintained that the large woman with her back to camera in the Flower and Dean Street photo, and the large woman with her hands on her hips in the Dorset Street photo are also very similar. If you look carefully at the Dorset Street photo you'll see that the large lady wears a similar belt over the top of her shirt.

Observer

Observer

[Observer]

See Suzi's post #35 for the two photo's in question.

[Observer]

[QUOTE=Glenn Lauritz Andersson;5933]The strange thing is, that the crime scene photo does not really show a stout or buxom woman. Kelly actually appears quite slender, judging by the width of the arms, the thighs and the oval shape of the face. So this has always been a mystery to me.
And no (before anyone jumps in) - I don't support the theory that the person on the bed was another woman than Kelly.

Hi Glenn

But there are contempory reports of Kelly being a stout woman are there not?

Observer

[Observer]

[QUOTE=Glenn Lauritz Andersson;5933]The strange thing is, that the crime scene photo does not really show a stout or buxom woman. Kelly actually appears quite slender, judging by the width of the arms, the thighs and the oval shape of the face. So this has always been a mystery to me.
And no (before anyone jumps in) - I don't support the theory that the person on the bed was another woman than Kelly.

[QUOTE=Glenn Lauritz Andersson;5933]

Hi Glenn

But there are contempory reports of Kelly being a stout woman are there not?

Observer

[Brenda]

Brenda,

I doubt that many people have such bad proportions as the rather extreme 'pear' shape. That actually doesn't look like a real person.
Even on those with pear shaped body, the arms are not generally that slender.
Fact is, that the upper arms are one of the best indicators - if a person is plump or stout, this is generally quite often visible on the arms (although the hands and the wrists can remain slender). The same can be said for the thighs, but in Kelly's case those are unfortunately more difficult to estimate because of the mutilations.

Based on several parts on Kelly's body (inlduding the arms, parts of the legs, the shape of the face etc.) I can't for the life of me regard her as buxom or plump in any way. Unless we are here faced with an expression that would mean something different in Victorian England than in our modern age.

All the best

Well Glenn, that diagram came from the New York Times health section by A.D.A.M.
"A.D.A.M., Inc. is accredited by URAC, also known as the American Accreditation HealthCare Commission (www.urac.org). URAC's accreditation program is an independent audit to verify that A.D.A.M. follows rigorous standards of quality and accountability."

It was reviewed for publication by Harvey Simon, MD, Associate Professor of Medicine, Harvard Medical School; Physician, Massachusetts General Hospital. So the diagram's sources are impeccable.

Unfortunately the apple shape does exist and in plentiful supply, a lot of it is due to obesity. But even if "apple shapes" lose weight, a lot of them still carry more weight on their midsection than on hips and thighs, so it is a hereditary thing.

Like the person above stated and I stated too, MJK was described as being stout, which is something that cannot be ignored. I don't think they would have said that if she were thin. The papers of the time were prone to exaggeration, but if they lied about peoples' basic descriptions, then we need to discount everything printed in them.

[Judroo]

Photos of Millers Court

Regarding possible photos of Millers Court/Dorset Street, is it known if there are any crime scene photos connected to other murders in Millers Court (eg Kitty Ronan etc)?



Jud