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  #111  
Old Today, 01:54 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
>>We do not have the official transcript for the Nichols inquest, and so have no option but to use the press reports.<<


I'm sure you haven't, but don't forget the police reports, you posts are increasingly moving intoareass they covered.
How right you are Dusty. And there is much there.

Steve
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  #112  
Old Today, 02:07 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Steve,

For a start, the law required that an inspector, a 'Horse Coroner', be present at the killing of any animal (horse, cow, camel - elephant) at a knacker's yard. Such an official should have been present when the 3/4 horses were dispatched on the night in question.

Gary


Gary.

In my old professional life there were official legally prescribed positions a bit like the above. However some of these did not need to be filled by independent persons and members of staff were appointed to fill these positions.

So my questions are :

what qualifications did the "Horse Coroner" need to hold?

Were they appointed or nominated?

That is could the position be held by someone on site already, including Barber?

And if not, as I guess is the likely answer, it is entirely possible that rules were bent and said inspector may have checked all at the start of a shift, left and claimed to be there the whole shift. Such does happen.

Truly fascinating subject, must read all of your post on subject on JtR Forums, done a bit already but not had time to do all.

Many thanks for the insights into the horse meat trade.


Steve
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  #113  
Old Today, 02:16 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Hi Dusty,

There's a story behind everything, but sadly I don't know the reason why the Tomkins family returned to London or whether Alfred Barber knew of William's past history. I think it's very likely he did, though, because, as I said previously, it was a small world. In 1881, for instance, Henry Tomkins was living in Manchester with a knacker named Nicholas Shippy whose family had lived and worked in the Winthrop Street area alongside Alfred Barber's father, William. When Shippy's father died he had moved to Wolverhampton and there hooked up with some other ex-Winthrop Street horse-slaughterers. His employer in Wolverhampton later opened a yard in Newton Heath, Manchester.

Henry, his father and his brother Thomas were all horse slaughterers, and in 1888 they were all living a few streets away from Buck's Row. William's death cert simply gives his place of death as 'Winthrop Street'. The one press report of the incident says that one of his sons (it names the son William, but his three sons were in fact, Henry, Thomas and Robert) discovered him while passing the slaughterhouse.

It seems a bit too much of a coincidence that a slaughterman dropped dead outside a slaughter yard and his son, another slaughterman just happened to be passing the yard and discovered the body.

This does get us off the subject a bit, but I think it's interesting to flesh out the cardboard cut-out figures who were interviewed and cleared of Polly's killing.

Gary,

Truly fascinating background studies.


It certainly does make one ask what was going on in Winthrop Street in 88?


Steve
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  #114  
Old Today, 02:41 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Gary.

In my old professional life there were official legally prescribed positions a bit like the above. However some of these did not need to be filled by independent persons and members of staff were appointed to fill these positions.

So my questions are :

what qualifications did the "Horse Coroner" need to hold?

Were they appointed or nominated?

That is could the position be held by someone on site already, including Barber?

And if not, as I guess is the likely answer, it is entirely possible that rules were bent and said inspector may have checked all at the start of a shift, left and claimed to be there the whole shift. Such does happen.

Truly fascinating subject, must read all of your post on subject on JtR Forums, done a bit already but not had time to do all.

Many thanks for the insights into the horse meat trade.


Steve
I believe the official title was, 'Inspector of Houses (etc) for Horse Slaughtering'.

I've had no luck tracing whoever was in the position in Whitechapel in 1888. An earlier incumbent had been a publican named Benjamin Abley, the one time licensee of the Grave Maurice.

Over in Islington a 'farrier' named Caleb Hunt held the position for decades, although he had to reapply for the role annually. His application was generally rubber-stamped, but on one occasion several members of the Vestry Committee opposed his reappointment because he had briefly run John Harrison's yard while Harrison was ill. This was deemed to be a conflict of interests as he was meant to check that knackers weren't processing stolen or diseased animals. Hunt's successor was a Veterinary Surgeon, but he himself started out as a brush maker.

The inspectors received a fee for each animal they inspected.

I don't have the answer as to whether the slaughtermen themselves were paid on the same basis, but the legendary Potler who could kill and strip an animal twice as fast as any other knacker apparently pulled in a very decent wage and bedecked himself with diamonds.

Sad bugger that I am, I have some of the legislation covering the trade at home. Your thread has reminded me that I need to complete my collection.
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  #115  
Old Today, 02:54 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
I believe the official title was, 'Inspector of Houses (etc) for Horse Slaughtering'.

I've had no luck tracing whoever was in the position in Whitechapel in 1888. An earlier incumbent had been a publican named Benjamin Abley, the one time licensee of the Grave Maurice.

Over in Islington a 'farrier' named Caleb Hunt held the position for decades, although he had to reapply for the role annually. His application was generally rubber-stamped, but on one occasion several members of the Vestry Committee opposed his reappointment because he had briefly run John Harrison's yard while Harrison was ill. This was deemed to be a conflict of interests as he was meant to check that knackers weren't processing stolen or diseased animals. Hunt's successor was a Veterinary Surgeon, but he himself started out as a brush maker.

The inspectors received a fee for each animal they inspected.

I don't have the answer as to whether the slaughtermen themselves were paid on the same basis, but the legendary Potler who could kill and strip an animal twice as fast as any other knacker apparently pulled in a very decent wage and bedecked himself with diamonds.

Sad bugger that I am, I have some of the legislation covering the trade at home. Your thread has reminded me that I need to complete my collection.

So perfectly possible that the inspector could check all the animals at the start of a shift and then move on to another establishment, or just go home.
Might explain why no mention of any inspector in the surviving documents. Police or Press.

Many thanks very interesting points


Steve
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  #116  
Old Today, 02:57 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Default mortuary?

The discussion on the meat trade is truly fascinating and has the next part of the project will not be posted for a few days it's great.

However does anyone have anything to say on The Mortuary reports or Helson?

If so chip in please.


Steve
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  #117  
Old Today, 09:21 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Interesting stuff again Steve especially with Gary's contribution. Unfortunately, with Gary mentioning a 'horse coroner', I now have the image in my head of an Inquest being headed by a horse! Cheers Gary
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  #118  
Old Today, 09:35 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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with Gary mentioning a 'horse coroner', I now have the image in my head of an Inquest being headed by a horse!
Whinny Baxter
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  #119  
Old Today, 10:24 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Interesting stuff again Steve especially with Gary's contribution. Unfortunately, with Gary mentioning a 'horse coroner', I now have the image in my head of an Inquest being headed by a horse! Cheers Gary
Any time I can be of service, Michael...
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  #120  
Old Today, 01:23 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Whinny Baxter
Someone might have asked him "why the long face?"
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