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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #911  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:27 PM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Picking and choosing works both ways Mike.

Ok.

An obscure poem - Crashaw has been described as 'among the major figures associated with the metaphysical poets in 17th century English literature.' Would have been more widely known in the 19th century.

Pubs - is it impossible that Maybrick might have called The Post Office Tavern, The Poste House? Seeing that 'post office' and 'post house' were interchangeable terms?

Out of date phrases - I assume you mean 'one off instrance?' All I can say, and I haven't researched this myself, is that Robert Smith says that he has found that the phrase 'one off duty' was used 19th century prisons in Jonathon Green's 'Dictionary of Jargon.'
Herlock, the Post Office Tavern was never known as the Poste House, why some of you keep ignoring this glaring fact is something I can't fathom.

The "e" should be a giveaway, seeing as the Post Office Tavern didn't include an "e", but the well-known pub called the "Poste House" did/does.

If we're going to start making up random facts about pubs for the sake of excusing an error, then we're not playing fairly, are we? You might as well just invent a pub called the Poste House and have it sit at the top of Riversdale road in 1888, now lost to the sands of time, despite a solid history of local pubs from the Victorian age existing in books widely available in this city not showing any pub of that name existing.

One-Off duty is in no way reflective of "one off instance."

So, again, May was a true man of obscure knowledge, from obscure poetry, to obscure pubs, to obscure phrases, to obscure handwriting.

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  #912  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:27 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
Herlock, one test would be the handwriting. Simple stuff, really. It either matches May's writing or it doesn't. Last time I checked, it didn't match.

So, either May was a true enigma, which some feel inclined to believe, or it wasn't written by him.

"The tests were done and no sign of forgery was found" seems like a rather bold and fanciful statement to make, considering the fact that the handwriting does not match that of the man who supposedly wrote it.

How could the text be analysed? This is something that is done every day, to detect things like fraud, for one. They even did it with our old mate Holmes on his recent 15 minutes of fame, to see whether Holmes wrote "Saucy Jack" or "Dear Boss," and the results showed no match.

People give away clues about their identity when they write, Herlock. Maybrick was no different in this respect.
Yes but to see if it was the way Maybrick wrote, i mean content not handwriting, you would need examples to compare it with which I don't think exist, do they?

The handwriting has never bothered me in the slightest apart from what kind of cretinous forger would forge a document without bothering to even attempt to forge the handwriting of the subject and hope that no one would notice. Or could a seriously disturbed drug addict have seen his Ripper identity as a kind of alter ego and so used a different hand?
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  #913  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:27 PM
Ally Ally is offline
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Know what? I reckon if the Angel Gabriel descended from Heaven with the True Origin Of The Diary graven in letters of fire upon a golden tablet and signed 'God', he'd be argued with.....

Graham
First he'd have to prove he was the angel Gabriel, then he'd have to prove God was God and then he'd have to prove the signature was Gods before I'd lend credence.
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  #914  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:29 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
"Had no data to offer" is interesting, Graham, and is precisely why I worry about the conclusiveness of the test on the diary (see my post above). If only McNeil's test had been calibrated against an authenticated notebook/ledger of the late C19th, ideally made of the same/similar paper, I'd be much happier.
Indeed Sam, and that's what I implied in my post, with regard to a set of 'standards' he could use for purposes of comparison. Not only does ink vary in composition, so does paper. I don't know if McNeil possessed such a set of 'standards'.

Interesting that Dr David Baxendale's initial tests showed that the Diary ink was readily soluble (in what solvent I don't know), whereas he would have expected an old ink to be difficult to dissolve. Was it Leeds University that reported the exact opposite?

Graham
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  #915  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:30 PM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Sam, our post(e)s regarding the ion-migration thingie crossed, but I broadly agree with what you say. I'll read up a bit more on it when I get a mo.

And hey! here's another thing. I don't have a facsimile of the Diary to hand, but I believe that there are two distinct 'scripts' used on its pages. One is a cursive (joined-up) script, the other is a kind of print-script, similar to how many Germans would write and not, as I believe, common in this country until well into the 20th century (it's how I hand-write myself, as it goes).

I have in my possession a number of old hand-written family letters and documents dating from about 1872 to 1910-ish, and in none of them do I detect anything like a modern print-script. The cursive writing in these letters varies from almost artistic to almost indecipherable. And all done, I should say, with a dip-pen (is that the correct term?) rather than a fountain-pen, as in almost every letter you can see where the nib is running out and has to be re-dipped in the ink.

Graham
A person's handwriting style tends to change from time to time, my own has done several times over the years.

One thing a person's handwriting style does not do is completely change in terms of detail which are plainly evident to experts who are paid to analyse such things.

If May wrote the diary, there will be evidence for it in his hand, and last I checked, it didn't match. Seems like a simple experiment, have someone professional check it, have they? Will they?

The jury is out.
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  #916  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:31 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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First he'd have to prove he was the angel Gabriel, then he'd have to prove God was God and then he'd have to prove the signature was Gods before I'd lend credence.
I did say I'm Jewish, Ally, and I'll know the Angel Gabriel when I see him. Also, I do have God's signature on one of His post-dated cheques.

Graham
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  #917  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:31 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
Herlock, the Post Office Tavern was never known as the Poste House, why some of you keep ignoring this glaring fact is something I can't fathom.

The "e" should be a giveaway, seeing as the Post Office Tavern didn't include an "e", but the well-known pub called the "Poste House" did/does.

If we're going to start making up random facts about pubs for the sake of excusing an error, then we're not playing fairly, are we? You might as well just invent a pub called the Poste House and have it sit at the top of Riversdale road in 1888, now lost to the sands of time, despite a solid history of local pubs from the Victorian age existing in books widely available in this city not showing any pub of that name existing.

One-Off duty is in no way reflective of "one off instance."

So, again, May was a true man of obscure knowledge, from obscure poetry, to obscure pubs, to obscure phrases, to obscure handwriting.

The writer also spelt 'post haste' with an 'e' showing that this was a spelling error that he repeated 4 times

One off duty is transparently reflective of one off instance.

I'm thinking that's it's time to withdraw here Mike. Such omniscience is a little scary.
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  #918  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:34 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike J. G. View Post
A person's handwriting style tends to change from time to time, my own has done several times over the years.

One thing a person's handwriting style does not do is completely change in terms of detail which are plainly evident to experts who are paid to analyse such things.

If May wrote the diary, there will be evidence for it in his hand, and last I checked, it didn't match. Seems like a simple experiment, have someone professional check it, have they? Will they?

The jury is out.
Yes Mike, I agree, a person's handwriting can and often does change with time, but the difference in styles which I believe is evident in the Diary could not be accounted for in such a way, assuming that the Diary was written in a relatively short space of time.

There is no way, IMHO, that any of the handwriting in the Diary can be matched with the handwriting in the SS Baltic letter. The writing in Maybrick's will is still a bone of contention, as there are those who believe that someone else wrote it at Maybrick's dictation when he was on his death-bed.

Graham
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  #919  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:36 PM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Yes but to see if it was the way Maybrick wrote, i mean content not handwriting, you would need examples to compare it with which I don't think exist, do they?

The handwriting has never bothered me in the slightest apart from what kind of cretinous forger would forge a document without bothering to even attempt to forge the handwriting of the subject and hope that no one would notice. Or could a seriously disturbed drug addict have seen his Ripper identity as a kind of alter ego and so used a different hand?
There exists examples of May's formal hand, they were not found to be a match with the diary, IIRC.

If the handwriting doesn't bother you, then I don't really know what to say to you, tbh.

The handwriting should matter to anyone wanting to actually know whether the diary was written by the man in question or not.

Saying the handwriting doesn't matter is about as odd as you can get.

It wouldn't matter a jot whether the writer was on LSD at the time of writing, Herlock. There are details within the text that do not change, such as angles, where a loop or a curl may begin and end, where the pressure-point showing the initial beginning of a certain written letter starts, and all other manner of details which simply do not change merely because a person is intoxicated.

There is an entire science devoted to such a thing as analyzing text for repeated patterns.

Either May wrote it or he didn't. The handwriting we have for May does not match that of the diary, yet apparently that doesn't matter.
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  #920  
Old 09-13-2017, 12:41 PM
Mike J. G. Mike J. G. is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
The writer also spelt 'post haste' with an 'e' showing that this was a spelling error that he repeated 4 times

One off duty is transparently reflective of one off instance.

I'm thinking that's it's time to withdraw here Mike. Such omniscience is a little scary.
Yes, and as I've said, the added "e" to "post haste" implies that this was a subconscious addition due to having already written "Poste House."

Either that, or Maybrick was as thick as they come, and thought that a random "e" was just added to post in any circumstance.

People seem too willing to ignore blatant errors to lend credence to a diary that has thus far had zero evidence in its favour, yet a lot of evidence going against it.

Last edited by Mike J. G. : 09-13-2017 at 12:46 PM.
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