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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Catherine Eddowes

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  #51  
Old 12-20-2017, 08:45 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post

Daily News
United Kingdom
4 October 1888


I cannot imagine what she was doing in Mitre-square. ["] [/i]
Doubt she was visiting Mitre Square.

If Jack's bolt hole was in Mitre Street,number 6 for example,a lot of the timing makes sense.
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  #52  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:44 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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There wasn't a single clue as to the killer of any of the Whitechapel victims, including the 'non-canonicals'. The closest we ever got was James Sadler in the Frances Coles murder, but despite his troubled relationship with the victim and the other evidence against him (the blunt knife, the bloodstained clothes, etc.) he was still cleared, even though the police continued to suspect him.

That's why it's a preposterous notion that Eddowes was extensively mutilated to cover the killer's true motive. I don't think you could even make such an argument for Alice McKenzie, whose mutilations were much tamer by comparison, but at least I could see some logic there.
Alice McKenzie was killed in very similar fashion to Polly and Annie, if anything, she belongs in a Jack the Ripper Canonical Group with the aforementioned.

The notion isn't so preposterous to those of us that read daily papers and see murder victims and crime scenes intentionally muddled with by the culprit to confuse any investigations. Like someone piecing up a victim to scatter the remains, when all that was intended was murder, not dismemberment. A pre-existing series of killings without any semblance of a clue as to whom was committing them is practically an invitation to people like the above.
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  #53  
Old 12-20-2017, 09:53 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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I found that to be an interesting perspective Jerry, because I don't think someone tattoos the initials of someone prominently on a forearm without believing there is a permanent connection there. Her relationship with Kelly seems like a mutually beneficial alliance more than a heartfelt relationship, and so the idea that she might still be in close touch with Conway, and perhaps the circle of Irish friends they hung out with..on both sides of that revolutionary fence...might be an Irish connection that carries on into this murder.

I keep finding myself led back to the Parnell Commission...the international espionage, the double spies, the informants, the Irish self rule factions, the idea that those factions have secured a place in Parliament...there were lots of people involved, many with access to some serious money, and many of whom had secrets and aspirations that could be instantly exposed and derailed by a suggestion of linkage to the ongoing street women murders going on locally. An example......a double agent witness at the Parnell Commission requested 10,000L to testify. He got 5,000L. Do you have any idea how vast that sum was at that time? Even today, the equivalent of that sum would be ridiculous. Would someone involved with those kinds of sums let a story come out that he or associates of his were also committing horrific murders across Londons East End? In many ways I see the footprints of Terrorism in some of these acts. Based on political aspirations. In particular the crimes committed outdoors.

As far as I can tell, the only factions practicing these kinds of front page news atrocities at that time in England were some self rule Irish groups.
Let me get this straight....
Eddowes suspects an acquaintance of hers is Jack, and, rather than take the life-changing monetary reward for turning them in, tries to extort even more money from this person who she thinks is a homicidal maniac, but in fact isn't the killer of Chapman and Nichols. Actually, they are a well-funded revolutionary agent involved in international espionage and political intrigue at the highest level, but working deep under cover in the doss-houses of Whitechapel. Despite apparently having almost limitless funds, they decide - in order to avoid being linked to the killings by Kate - to link themselves to the killings by murdering Kate and making it look like the previous murders. But not enough like them to convince everyone.......Is that what you're suggesting?
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  #54  
Old 12-20-2017, 11:44 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Let me get this straight....
Eddowes suspects an acquaintance of hers is Jack, and, rather than take the life-changing monetary reward for turning them in, tries to extort even more money from this person who she thinks is a homicidal maniac, but in fact isn't the killer of Chapman and Nichols. Actually, they are a well-funded revolutionary agent involved in international espionage and political intrigue at the highest level, but working deep under cover in the doss-houses of Whitechapel. Despite apparently having almost limitless funds, they decide - in order to avoid being linked to the killings by Kate - to link themselves to the killings by murdering Kate and making it look like the previous murders. But not enough like them to convince everyone.......Is that what you're suggesting?
That's your storyline created from pieces of factual information I cited. If creating comical storylines out of factual data appeals to you, then that's not my problem.

There is a story that Kate was going to squeal on someone she suspected was capable of murdering the previous victims. If you don't think that person existed, fine, But if he did, then he is capable of killing her to shut her up. The actual slicing and dicing is secondary to the motive. Annies killer killed her so that he could obtain what he did, claimed by the man who examined her, no-on in their right mind would suggest that Kate was killed so the man could get a kidney and a partial uterus, and that the slicing of her face, the sectioning of colon, the tearing and cutting of her apron was required to do so.

" No meaningless cuts".

Irish revolutionaries were the topic of the day, aside from these murders, and money, large money was being handed out to spies and informants, and secrets were being protected. Living the life of an ostrich isn't really the best way to possibly solve these, is it Josh?

Here is an example. Anderson was on record paying money to people that the previous year planned to kill the Queen, and at the time of the murders, was planning to kill Balfour. Think anyone in that group would kill to protect secrets or incomes? Homeless street women? I cant see a reason to hesitate if youre that kind of fellow myself. Nor to cut up the victim to emulate a series of murders that the police had zero chance of solving at that time. People who kill often do things to the bodies to aid in dispersing the evidence, confuse the investigators and deflect attention from the real motives. I cant believe how often I have to point out the bleeding obvious here.

I don't plan on posting here much longer, Ive exhausted my patience for having an uproven argument set against the bigger unproven 125yr plus argument,.... a single, mad serial killer of the Canonical Group, mocked by creating an obviously comical farce based loosely on the actual facts. So no worries...Ive given up trying to get folks to the reality trough. I just wish that there were more enlightened arguments, and less dismissal of possible storylines that have backing within the known evidence.

There were double agents, dynamiters, murderers and every sort of bad guy in that East End at that time, to dismiss the possibility that any of those might have some role in any of the 13 plus unsolved murders that took place there is naÔve at best, and idiotic at the worst.

Jack, the skill changing, super sleuth who morphs each murder and kills only to satisfy his blood lust and the only killer running around the East End at that time.......I mean, ...c'mon.
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  #55  
Old 12-20-2017, 04:12 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Suppose I was a little peeved last post Josh, not good form. I do intend to fade away shortly because Ive determined that this myth is far to ingrained to topple. And because any ideas that are thrown against the wall for discussion are mocked or ridiculed...despite the fact that the posters doing so know very well I am well versed in these cases, as are other Canonical dissenters, and we are not incapable of logical and reasonable ideas.

Kate may well have tried to blackmail someone with more at stake than being tried for some street prostitute murders in the ghetto, and she may well have been mutilated so that the investigation would be pointed away from any real motive and onto an unknown, suspected mad, serial killer. Whom the police knew nothing about. Those are real possibilities, as are others. The only real impossibility is that a killer thought to have medical grade knife and anatomy skills in the beginning of September loses both with a month.
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  #56  
Old 12-20-2017, 04:30 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Suppose I was a little peeved last post Josh, not good form. I do intend to fade away shortly because Ive determined that this myth is far to ingrained to topple. And because any ideas that are thrown against the wall for discussion are mocked or ridiculed...despite the fact that the posters doing so know very well I am well versed in these cases, as are other Canonical dissenters, and we are not incapable of logical and reasonable ideas.

Kate may well have tried to blackmail someone with more at stake than being tried for some street prostitute murders in the ghetto, and she may well have been mutilated so that the investigation would be pointed away from any real motive and onto an unknown, suspected mad, serial killer. Whom the police knew nothing about. Those are real possibilities, as are others. The only real impossibility is that a killer thought to have medical grade knife and anatomy skills in the beginning of September loses both with a month.
I don't discount the possibility at all myself, Michael. Mitre Square was a known location for the Irish dynamiters in 84-85. The Rose and Crown Coffee Shop just off Mitre Square on Hounsditch was being used by Abberline to question and sequester a witness in the Cleveland Steet Scandal in 1889 so may have been in use for other police surveillance type acvtivity in 1888. It's been suggested that the reason PC Pearce was housed in Mitre Square was to watch for this type of illegal activity.

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  #57  
Old 12-21-2017, 05:38 AM
curious curious is offline
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what kind of killer do you think Eddowes not only believed she knew, but believed had more ready cash than a banker?
William Henry Bury.

This aspect of the murders has intrigued me for years because of the possible family relationship between Eddowes and Bury --One had an Evans mother, the other an Evans grandmother, both were from Wolverhampton and the families seemed to have lived within a block or so of each other as I recall. Of course, Eddowes was so much older that she was gone from home before WHB moved into the area, but her aunt continued to live there.

Plus WHB had married money. He loved to throw it around and I highly suspect that when he was in his cups, he bragged Ellen's worth was much more than it was.

The possibility of a cousin knowing that WHB was a bad'en doesn't seem too far fetched to me . . .

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  #58  
Old 12-21-2017, 07:37 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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. I do intend to fade away shortly because Ive determined that this myth is far to ingrained to topple.
Don`t fade away, Michael !!!
If you keep nibbling away the tree will fall
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  #59  
Old 12-21-2017, 08:56 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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The notion isn't so preposterous to those of us that read daily papers and see murder victims and crime scenes intentionally muddled with by the culprit to confuse any investigations. .
Go on, then.

Show me a series of murders (with a specific pathology like the Ripper case) where one of them was proven to be a deliberate red herring.

If someone else wanted Kate dead, they would've done it the old-fashioned way. There was absolutely no need to resort to those extreme measures, except in your wild imagination. Perhaps we would see some perfunctory abdominal mutilations if someone really wanted to take precautions, but instead they resorted to the worst excesses of the Whitechapel murders thus far. They also took more internal organs than necessary if they were trying to copy the Ripper. Why finger around in Kate's innards for a kidney of all things, when this wasn't part of the Ripper's previous signature?

The most rational, parsimonious and commonsense explanation for Kate's murder is that she fell afoul of the same monster who was terrorizing the neighbourhood. A killer who was becoming more daring and more violent with each successive victim.
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  #60  
Old 12-22-2017, 01:19 AM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Bingo. Wasnít she the one who said she was on some famous ship disaster?
That wasn't Kate, it was Liz Stride, I think.
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