Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Trevor Marriott]

Actually the vast majority of women are in stirrups with their knees up and spread for a hysterectomy. Just saying.

I've given my opinion of the positioning of the legs any number of times. And I'm not under the impression that it bears repeating. But the position does not create any real problems with the removal of organs. It is incredibly uncomfortable for a woman to be in that position for any length of time, but that's not exactly a concern here.

You are partially correct but before modern techniques were used it used to be an incision in the abdomen, which I would suggest would still have been difficult with the knees up around the waist, even under normal lighting conditions and in a medical environment let alone in almost darkness in a blood filled abdomen.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Errata]

You are partially correct but before modern techniques were used it used to be an incision in the abdomen, which I would suggest would still have been difficult with the knees up around the waist, even under normal lighting conditions and in a medical environment let alone in almost darkness in a blood filled abdomen.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hysterectomies have been done trans vaginally since the 1860s or 1870s. Which seems insane given how little attention was paid to women's medicine, and how wacky various procedures of the time were, and given that at that point they were still giving hysterectomies for hysteria.

There's no reason for anyone to know that though. The only reason I know is that my dad is an OB/GYN and has textbooks from that era lying around and I looked through them to find c-section incision locations. And I was surprised.

[Batman]

Forensic awareness

JtR was forensically aware during the murders. We know this due to the blood analysis.

After Chapman's obvious medical skill, this becomes less obvious in the other murders but they display some signs that still today warrent medical skill interpretation from medical professionals.

Prof. David Wilson said that during his investigation of the Ipswich Ripper, that his MO changed and he started to pose bodies and leave them out of water on dry land instead of river dumping. Prof. Wilson then realized that the murderer was paying attention to the media, his own forensic analysis and deliberately changed his pattern.

I would suggest that knowing JtR was forensically aware that the medical skill Dr. Phillips was on about sent him underground for a month. The deviations from medical skill in Eddowes and Kelly is a forensically aware response.

It also means JtR is very much a medical person.

[Errata]

JtR was forensically aware during the murders. We know this due to the blood analysis.

After Chapman's obvious medical skill, this becomes less obvious in the other murders but they display some signs that still today warrent medical skill interpretation from medical professionals.

Prof. David Wilson said that during his investigation of the Ipswich Ripper, that his MO changed and he started to pose bodies and leave them out of water on dry land instead of river dumping. Prof. Wilson then realized that the murderer was paying attention to the media, his own forensic analysis and deliberately changed his pattern.

I would suggest that knowing JtR was forensically aware that the medical skill Dr. Phillips was on about sent him underground for a month. The deviations from medical skill in Eddowes and Kelly is a forensically aware response.

It also means JtR is very much a medical person.

It doesn't necessarily. I could generally do these murders (I have a tremor though). I have knowledge and skills other people don't because I come from a medical family. I can trach someone if I have to because I helped my mom do it in a mall when I was a kid. And my dad was an OB/GYN. I read, saw, heard, did things other kids didn't do. But I've never even had a CPR course. My grandfather taught me. And there was nothing to do in my dad's office except play with the medical models before he went home for the day.

So if I could do it, then my sister could do it, who works PR for a college. And if we'd had live in servants, they would have been exposed to all the stuff I was. And maybe even their kids would be exposed to it. Not enough knowledge to inflict on someone you to save, but enough to deal with a dead person. I don't think anyone argues that somehow Jack made it through his whole life with ever being exposed to anatomy, science, medicine. But how much do you really need for it to be enough? Is it enough if you clean a doctor's office once a week?

[Richard Patterson]

believe that all the Ripper investigators and doctors told what they knew, but understandably, many Ripperologists today have been swayed away from the ‘medical student’ scenario. This is most probably because one of the most respected examining surgeons in the case did not see a revolutionary medical technique in the wounds of one of the victims. There are two opinions about the crimes. One is that the Ripper had medical knowledge; the other is that he did not. Those who say he did not base this mainly on the conclusion reached by Dr. Thomas Bond, the doctor who examined the last ripper victim, Mary Kelly. He said,

‘In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.’

This conclusion goes counter to the earlier findings of many other experts. The coroner to the inquest of the 2nd murder victim, Annie Chapman’s, Wynne Edwin Baxter, said,

‘the injuries had been made by someone who had considerable anatomical skill and knowledge. There were no meaningless cuts. The organ had been taken by one who knew where to find it, what difficulties he would have to contend against, and how he should use his knife so as to abstract the organ without injury to it....The conclusion that the desire was to possess the missing abdominal organ seemed overwhelming.’

Dr George Bagster Phillips, the police surgeon who had examined Annie Chapman’s, concluded that the wounds could have been done by,

‘such an instrument as a medical man used for post-mortem purposes… the mode in which the knife had been used seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.’

Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown also believed the ripper had anatomical skill. He performed the post-mortem for the third murder victim, Catherine Eddowes, and he said,

‘I believe the perpetrator of the act must have had considerable knowledge of the positions of the organs in the abdominal cavity and the way of removing them. The parts removed would be of no use for any professional purpose. It required a great deal of medical knowledge to have removed the kidney and to know where it was placed.’

The medical skill of the Ripper was echoed in the papers and is what was generally believed by the public. The newspaper “The Star” wrote this in their report,

‘…a mad medical student with a bad history behind him or a tendency to religious mania- these are obvious classes on which the detective sense which all of us posses in some measure should be kept.’

The "Times" newspaper also said, 'The injuries had been made by someone who had considerable anatomical skill and knowledge'. The “Times” reported that Dr Phillip’s medical evidence was that the murderer's method was apparently 'scientific in manner…There were no meaningless cuts. The organ had been taken by one who knew where to find it, what difficulties he would have to contend against and how he should use his knife so as to abstract the organ without injury to it. No unskilled person could have known were to find it or have recognised it when found. For instance no slaughter of animals could have carried out these operations. It must have been some one accustomed to the post mortem room.'

Sir Robert Anderson, Commissioner to the CID, from August 31 1888 onwards, wrote of the Ripper,

'One thing is certain, namely, the elusive assassin whoever he was, possessed anatomical knowledge. This, therefore, leads one pretty surely to the conclusion that he was a medical man, or one who had formerly been a medical student.'

Dr. Thomas bond was considered an authority on similar cases and he was much respected for his expertise. So why did Dr. Bond insist the murderer had no medical skill? Perhaps because he could only speak from what he knew. For example he did not know the Virchow technique. My suspect Francis Thompson knew it well. He studied as a surgeon for 6 years at Owens Medical College in Manchester. The Virchow technique was a new German dissecting process that had only been taught in England in Thompson's medical school, and not to Dr. Bond.

He studied at London’s King’s College, and King’s College Hospital between 1860 and 1865. While Thompson studied in Manchester’s Owens College and infirmary thirteen years after Dr. Bond, from 1878 till 1884. Part of the brand new Virchow technique required the removing of the each individual organ, such as the kidney, and treating them as separate entities. As was seen in Mary Kelly’s heart being taken via slicing into the pericardium lining, The Virchow method taught cutting through membranes to reach the organs. To someone untrained in this, like Bond, such mutilation of the body would appear insensible. That the injuries done to Kelly were seemingly by an untrained person was the logical and incorrect conclusion reached by Bond. All the others doctors and police who believed the Ripper had medical skill were probably right and Dr. Bond was right as far as he could be, based on what he knew. The only logical conclusion is that the Ripper had medical knowledge and Bond did not see a new technique such as that taught at Thompson’s medical school. To conclude that Bond knew every new technique and that all the other doctors and experts were wrong is probably incorrect.

[Batman]

If he couldn't be identified ordinarily as having medical skill, then there would be no reason to hide it in his MO/Signature.

Dr. Phillips brought up medical skill, we have a one month pause.

Then we have some discrepancies with later victims over medical skill. Is there medical skill or not? This seems similar to the medical skill being masked by the elements of overkill.

What are we in the middle of here?

Dr. Wilson resolved similar MO changes with the Ipswich killer by realizing the killer, Steve Wright, was listening and responding to his forensic analysis.

[Batman]

It doesn't necessarily. I could generally do these murders (I have a tremor though). I have knowledge and skills other people don't because I come from a medical family. I can trach someone if I have to because I helped my mom do it in a mall when I was a kid. And my dad was an OB/GYN. I read, saw, heard, did things other kids didn't do. But I've never even had a CPR course. My grandfather taught me. And there was nothing to do in my dad's office except play with the medical models before he went home for the day.

So if I could do it, then my sister could do it, who works PR for a college. And if we'd had live in servants, they would have been exposed to all the stuff I was. And maybe even their kids would be exposed to it. Not enough knowledge to inflict on someone you to save, but enough to deal with a dead person. I don't think anyone argues that somehow Jack made it through his whole life with ever being exposed to anatomy, science, medicine. But how much do you really need for it to be enough? Is it enough if you clean a doctor's office once a week?

This puts Druitt back in the picture.

[Errata]

This puts Druitt back in the picture.

I always thought this was a case less of who COULD do it and more of who WOULD do it.

People kill all the time. Anyone can take a life. But to do it that way takes a lot more than mere ability.

[Rosemary]

Well

The most fascinating thread I've ever read. Amazing arguments, I found myself going back & forth with each defender. Still at naught, but I haven't the background all of you have with the case. I probably won't be able to sleep tonight without nightmares. Well done, all. I do so love a good debate.

[GUT]

The most fascinating thread I've ever read. Amazing arguments, I found myself going back & forth with each defender. Still at naught, but I haven't the background all of you have with the case. I probably won't be able to sleep tonight without nightmares. Well done, all. I do so love a good debate.

Plenty of threads here that will do that.

Keep you awake

Have you going back and forth, yep nope, yep nope.

Some smart cookies, some who get a bit defensive some who can't see past their own pet theory, some who can't see the hole n their pet idea, some who live to pick holes in others ideas.

[John G]

The most fascinating thread I've ever read. Amazing arguments, I found myself going back & forth with each defender. Still at naught, but I haven't the background all of you have with the case. I probably won't be able to sleep tonight without nightmares. Well done, all. I do so love a good debate.

Hi Rosemary,

Interestingly, a number of medical experts, engaged by Trevor Marriott, are also sharply divided on this issue. However, the forensic pathologist-probably the most relevant medical specialty- Dr Biggs, was of the opinion that no prior anatomical knowledge was required: see Marriott, 2015.

[lynn cates]

stimulating

Hello Rosemary. Welcome to the boards.

Yes, the arguments are generally well laid out.

Glad you find them stimulating.

Cheers.
LC

[Rosemary]

The more I read the less I know

Hello Rosemary. Welcome to the boards.

Yes, the arguments are generally well laid out.

Glad you find them stimulating.

Cheers.
LC

Yes, they're are so well laid out, for the most part, & enjoyably written as well. Some of the snark I could do without but perhaps it gives what we in Louisiana call 'lagniappe' making it all the more intriguing to get past the amount of subjectivity needed to post. Errata is making a vegetarian out of me unless I can find kosher meat, hard to do in Cajun bayou country. My hubs is a physician & I want to ask him a few questions before I post some questions I have before y'all laugh me off the thread. No, I'm too hard-headed a woman to bother. Wounded, probably, but I'll get up again after I fall down.

[Hunter]

Love Louisiana and love Cajun food...as Justin Wilson used to say, "I garoantee."

Welcome, Rosemary.

[Abby Normal]

Love Louisiana and love Cajun food...as Justin Wilson used to say, "I garoantee."

Welcome, Rosemary.

"Uuuuhn....Yuuuhn!" Haha