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  #131  
Old 08-09-2017, 03:49 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi All,

Personally, I prefer the East London Observer, 1st September 1888, version of events—

"Constable Neale [sic] at once called for assistance, and with the help of some scavengers who were cleaning the roads at the time, managed to carry the body to the mortuary, which is situated in the Pavilion Yard close by. Mr. Edmunds, the keeper of the mortuary, was in attendance, and assisted by the officer and the scavengers, undressed the poor creature and placed her in one of the black coffins lying about the mortuary.’

"Accompanied by Mr. Edmunds, the keeper, our reporter visited the temporary resting place of the victim on Friday morning. The first evidence seen of the tragedy on arriving in the yard was a bundle of what were little more than rags, of which the woman had been divested, and which were lying on the flagstones just outside the mortuary. They consisted of a dull red cloak already mentioned, together with a dark bodice and brown skirt, a check flannel petticoat which bore the mark of the Lambeth Workhouse, a pair of dark stockings, and an old pair of dilapidated-looking spring-side boots, together with the little and sadly battered black straw bonnet, minus either ribbons or trimmings.

"Contrary to anticipation, beyond the flannel petticoat, and with the exception of a few bloodstains on the cloak, the other clothing was scarcely marked. The petticoat, however, was completely saturated with blood, and altogether presented a sickening spectacle."

Regards,

Simon
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  #132  
Old 08-09-2017, 07:27 PM
harry harry is offline
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Even if Cross or Paul stated he(Mizen) was wanted in Bucks Row,surely Mizen would have asked them if they had a reason why, and they would have told him(Mizen)about a woman lying there,and a suspicion she might be dead.That is what they communicated to him.No mention by them(Cross/Paul)of another officer present in Buck's Row. To me it is a question of how,"You are wanted in Bucks Row", was expressed by Cross/Paul,and interpreted by Mizen.
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  #133  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:13 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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>>... it doesn't seem to be possible (using Street View) to see Essex Wharf from the Baker's Row end of Durward St. It's not even possible to see the North side of the Board School, so doubt Neil could have seen Mizen until he was well into what was White's Row. Have the buildings on the northern side changed at all, does anyone know?<<

If the old ordinance survey maps are correct, it was possible to see down to Bakers Row from Bucks, but it was only a small line of sight. If you hunt through the archives about 5 years, you'll find the map I posted illustrating this.

Neil does say he moved around, so it's more than likely he moved to an even better position with regards to Baker's Row.

After all, he said he signalled Mizen. What would be the point of him signalling from a position he knew Mizen would not see him?

My guess is, he saw Mizen's Bullseye and signalled. Of course, we know Mizen was probably heading that way anyway, but Niel didn't know that.
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  #134  
Old 08-09-2017, 10:27 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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>> ... even if he was definitely coming out of Old Montague it does not tell us the direction he is going, particularly if he has a knock up to do at a set time of 3.45.<<

Mizen's beat is in Neil's (Bell not PC )book. I won't post it here, in case Neil objects, but I do strongly reccommend buying the book.

I don't have my notes here (I'm at work) but I vaguely remember there were no private houses on the corner. But I could be wrong!
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  #135  
Old 08-10-2017, 12:48 AM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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Found it!

Here's the Goad maps extracts. Doesn't prove anything, but opens some interesting questions about where Mizen went to "knock up". The nearset "D" for dwellings are down Hanbury and down Montague. There are some dwellings on the opposite side of Baker's Row, but that was Neil's beat (?) in "J" division.
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  #136  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:06 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
Found it!

Here's the Goad maps extracts. Doesn't prove anything, but opens some interesting questions about where Mizen went to "knock up". The nearset "D" for dwellings are down Hanbury and down Montague. There are some dwellings on the opposite side of Baker's Row, but that was Neil's beat (?) in "J" division.

Hi Dusty
yes the nearest would appear to be next to the corner building in Hanbury, however the Goad is 1890, and it is possible there were people living above the buildings in 1888.
I also note that the Building on the Southern corner of old Montague is designated PH I assume public house, can we be sure no one was living on these premise.

steve
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  #137  
Old 08-10-2017, 04:00 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
Found it!

Here's the Goad maps extracts. Doesn't prove anything, but opens some interesting questions about where Mizen went to "knock up". The nearset "D" for dwellings are down Hanbury and down Montague. There are some dwellings on the opposite side of Baker's Row, but that was Neil's beat (?) in "J" division.
Hi Dusty & Steve,

It has been my understanding that Mizen was at the end of Hanbury Street when he met the 2 carmen. Firstly, because Mizen stated so and, secondly, because if they would have met in the blue marked out area in the picture attached, the carmen would not have been able to see Mizen knocking up before Lechmere spoke to him (and we know from his Lloyd’s Weekly News interview of 2 September that at least Paul had seen him knocking up before they spoke) and wouldn’t have been able to see him continue to knock up at one other place, as Mizen would very likely needed to have been down Baker’s Row while the carmen were already out of sight in Hanbury Street.

Not that would change much, but the end of Hanbury Street seems the best guess, as it would leave a couple of houses open for Mizen to continue to knock up at and Paul & Lechmere would have been able to see Mizen do it.

All the best,
Frank
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  #138  
Old 08-10-2017, 05:05 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Hi Dusty & Steve,

It has been my understanding that Mizen was at the end of Hanbury Street when he met the 2 carmen. Firstly, because Mizen stated so and, secondly, because if they would have met in the blue marked out area in the picture attached, the carmen would not have been able to see Mizen knocking up before Lechmere spoke to him (and we know from his Lloyd’s Weekly News interview of 2 September that at least Paul had seen him knocking up before they spoke) and wouldn’t have been able to see him continue to knock up at one other place, as Mizen would very likely needed to have been down Baker’s Row while the carmen were already out of sight in Hanbury Street.

Not that would change much, but the end of Hanbury Street seems the best guess, as it would leave a couple of houses open for Mizen to continue to knock up at and Paul & Lechmere would have been able to see Mizen do it.

All the best,
Frank
Hi Frank

Good points, but if they walk up the Eastern side of Bakers and cross to the junction rather than crossing as soon as they leave Whites Row they have a different view.

And the exact position they see him is open to some debate. Lechmere says coming out of old Montague. Paul says at the corner of. Mizen says in some reports in Hanbury, in other reports on the junction of Hanbury and Bakers. One report says Bakers at the end of Campbell street?

It does not help not having the original transcript of course.

In addition Mizen seems to say the knock up he completes is the same as when they approached him.

And of course the fact he is knocking up, one presumes at an agreed time could mean that he has to retrace part of his beat to achieve this. ( he agrees to knock up say second house in Hanbury at 3.45 but is there earlier and then does say old Montague before arriving back at the aforementioned house before 3.45 and knocking up).


It seems to put him around the junction of the 3 roads, exactly where is uncertain.


Steve
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  #139  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:10 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi All,

Personally, I prefer the East London Observer, 1st September 1888, version of events—
It's strange that you would prefer this story over the actual evidence in the case, Simon, including that of four independent members of the public (Emma Green, Walter Purkis, Patrick Mulshaw and Henry Tomkins) who all swore that they saw the body of Nichols lying on the ground in Bucks Row surrounded by a number of constables, meaning that Neil was hardly likely to have carried the body to the mortuary on his own, along with a group of road cleaning scavengers. Mind you, it's the fifth time you've posted that newspaper extract, in one form or another, on this forum since 2008, so it's just a shame that you didn’t find any space for it in your book given that you appear to think it's what actually happened.
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  #140  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:19 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
It's strange that you would prefer this story over the actual evidence in the case, Simon, including that of four independent members of the public (Emma Green, Walter Purkis, Patrick Mulshaw and Henry Tomkins) who all swore that they saw the body of Nichols lying on the ground in Bucks Row surrounded by a number of constables, meaning that Neil was hardly likely to have carried the body to the mortuary on his own, along with a group of road cleaning scavengers. Mind you, it's the fifth time you've posted that newspaper extract, in one form or another, on this forum since 2008, so it's just a shame that you didn’t find any space for it in your book given that you appear to think it's what actually happened.
A cynical person, David, a category I'm sure neither of us fall into-perish the thought!-might suspect that Simon's trawling through obscure articles in order to give credence to a conspiracy theory. Perish the thought!
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