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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 07-26-2017, 05:12 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Default PC did not pass Dorset St. in his beat

The PC (Henry Morton) who was supposed to have Dorset St.in his beat was not in the Kelly inquest.
His testimony could have added/helped even if he said I did not see anyone in the street as he passed it,if a 30 min beat,
2x between 2 and 3 AM.

Here are examples of a couple of testimonies included in the Eddowes inquest. which did not really add a lot but helped.


Day 1, Thursday, October 4, 1888
(The Daily Telegraph, Friday, October 5, 1888, Page 3)

Constable Richard Pearce, 922 City: I reside at No. 3, Mitre-square. There are only two private houses in the square. I retired to rest at twenty minutes past twelve on the morning of last Sunday week.
[Coroner] Did you hear any noise in the square? - None at all. When did you first hear of the murder? - At twenty past two, when I was called by a constable.
[Coroner] From your bedroom window could you see the spot where the murder was committed? - Yes, quite plainly.
By Mr. Crawford: My wife and family were in no way disturbed during the night.


George Clapp, caretaker at No. 5, Mitre-street, deposed: The back part of the house looks into Mitre-square. On the night of Saturday week last I retired to rest in the back room on the second floor about eleven o'clock.
The Coroner: During the night did you hear any disturbance in the square? - No.
[Coroner] When did you first learn that a murder had been perpetrated? - Between five and six o'clock in the morning.
By Mr. Crawford: A nurse, who was in attendance upon my wife, was sleeping at the top of the house. No person slept either on the
ground floor or the first floor.


Although different coroners Mr. S. F. Langham - City and Dr. Macdonald, M.P.- Met, my contention is the PC did not perform passes through Dorset St.,Friday the 9th, between 1-5 AM at least.

Last edited by Varqm : 07-26-2017 at 05:14 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-26-2017, 05:57 PM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Hi varqm

I did not know that it had been established that 63L was Henry Morton? I may have missed it.

At any rate, it's possible the PC was absent, but I don't think his absence from the inquest can be used to argue that.

It's also as possible that the coroner did not call him because he had nothing to add - the witnesses at the inquest all added some info about Kelly's whereabouts - there were no time wasters; unlike the Eddowes' inquest you mention.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:36 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Morton is the only known name associated with that collar number, and he joined in the 1850s or sometime around then.

Collar numbers change frequently, upon on permanent transfer or restructuring.

However, to the point. Coroners call on the witnesses, this decided upon via witness statements. It would seem he didn't find any value in that particular statement.

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  #4  
Old 07-26-2017, 11:18 PM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Thank you Monty.

Morton appears in the Old Bailey transcripts as 63L as early as 1849.

I would find it highly unlikely that he was still in the police force 39 years later.

Even though the man depicted is an old geezer

I just wondered since varqm mentioned it being him seemingly as an established fact.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:47 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Thank you Monty.

Morton appears in the Old Bailey transcripts as 63L as early as 1849.

I would find it highly unlikely that he was still in the police force 39 years later.

Even though the man depicted is an old geezer

I just wondered since varqm mentioned it being him seemingly as an established fact.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, if he was say 25 when he joined in 1849 he's o even 65 by '88. If e wasn't 20 he hasn't even hit 60.
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  #6  
Old 07-27-2017, 12:07 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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The only Henry Morton in the Ancestry Met police records resigned in 1870 after 23 years in L division.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:44 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, if he was say 25 when he joined in 1849 he's o even 65 by '88. If e wasn't 20 he hasn't even hit 60.
But what was the mandatory retirement age in 1888? When my dad retired from the police force, about 20 years ago, it was 55.
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:12 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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Over on the Forums Howard Brown discovered a constable 63L in a report from 1887. Given the year, this is almost certainly the PC seconded to H division.

The name of the deceased was actually William Augustus Downe in the death register. This is the only report that I can find, but it's possible that if a local paper reported the inquest, the policeman may have been named.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18750&page=2
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:51 AM
Kattrup Kattrup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, if he was say 25 when he joined in 1849 he's o even 65 by '88. If e wasn't 20 he hasn't even hit 60.
No particular reasoning; it was my understanding that PCs routinely retired after 25 years, making 39 very unusual. Also, Henry Morton the PC appears regularly in Old Bailey until about the 1870s, I can't check at the moment but he stops appearing a longish time before 1888.

So nothing definite, I would just consider it very unlikely to be the same guy without further info
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:59 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kattrup View Post
Hi varqm

I did not know that it had been established that 63L was Henry Morton? I may have missed it.

At any rate, it's possible the PC was absent, but I don't think his absence from the inquest can be used to argue that.

It's also as possible that the coroner did not call him because he had nothing to add - the witnesses at the inquest all added some info about Kelly's whereabouts - there were no time wasters; unlike the Eddowes' inquest you mention.

I'm saying it was possible .Was it official (in the records,have not come across any) that the PC indeed passed Dorset St. in his beat?

Also it's just hard for me to believe that at 11:00 PM to 3:00 AM,the PC or PC's, if a beat changed.missed all these incidents,Kelly and Blotchy walking in Dorset St. to Millers Court at around 11:45 pm, Cox at 11:45 pm...12 am ...1 am -in and out (although a discrepancy with Prater)...3 am,Prater 1:00 - 1:20 am,Lewis at 2:30 am - and her sighting , the 2 couples - one on either side of Dorset St, the man standing across the court.So the times he passed by Dorset st. the street/street corners were empty,no couples or single man which would have been noteworthy .

And I suppose he was or his statement to his superiors was used to verify Hutch's statement because at 2:00 am to 3 am he must have passed by Dorset at least 2x.,and must have seen Hutch once at least.At least according to their initial belief that Hutch was trustworthy.


It's not established that it was Morton,just a possibilty.The name Henry Morton in the IPS illustration was randomly chosen?
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