The Night She Died

[perrymason]

Hi Perry,

Was Mary Kelly a prostitute? I feel she was. I think it was the popular believe at the time. Kelly lived in her home with Barnett. That may have made bringing clients back to her place a little difficult. However after Barnett's departure, it was not a problem. I am sure that she saw having a "safe" place to bring her clients as a good selling point. Kelly may have got her groove on that night before returning home with blotchy face but I am sure she was working and blotchy face was indeed a customer, who she brought back to her place.

Barnett had just run off leaving Kelly behind to deal with the landlord. I am sure she was concerned about the rent. Kelly may not have been the most responsible person with her money. I would be willing to bet that her drinks were being bought for her that night, maybe for her favors.

I agree Cox is the solid witness of the bunch, simply because of her familiarity with Kelly. We see events differently, you see Kelly entertaining a friend back in her room. I see kelly entertaining a client who she ahad taken to her room. I still think that Hutchinson saw Kelly later that night on the streets. Parts of His story may have been discredited later or not papers were not always the most reliable source and the Star does not go in to detail Just how his story was discredited.

Your friend, Brad

Hi Brad,

Sorry late to respond,...had a busy week....Ive never had any problem with our characterising Mary Kelly as a prostitute, although Im unsure if she had adjusted to that step down a rung from what seems to be Bordello and fancy dress start-off.

I think theres lots of valid reasons that any of us can see why she should have been working....but no "accepted" evidence on record that suggests she was in fact working that night. And a precedent had been set for what Mary does when in arrears before....she continues to default on payment until eviction....maybe too heavily relying on the Joe Barnetts of the world to come up with money for her, and apparently working only enough to earn her drink and food and none left for the roof over her head.

I believe we know by the statements regarding Mary Kelly that she sold herself on the streets, and in the absence of any contrary data, I believe we also know she has not historically been either responsible towards, nor overtly concerned by, running arrears in rent.

On the night she died, I feel the evidence we do have suggests Mary went on a bender, on someone elses nickel, and came home bombed and chipper.

Best regards Brad

[celee]

Are you suggesting a lesbian relationship between Kelly and Harvey?

No, not at all. Did I make it sound that way? I was suggesting if the argument that caused Joe to leave was over Kelly letting Maria stay in the house, then, in my opinion, seeing Maria in the house with Kelly would have made him angry. Maria made a point of letting Joe know that she would not be seeing Kelly later that night when she left. Maybe she senced the same thing.

Your friend, Brad

[celee]

Hi Brad,

Sorry late to respond,...had a busy week....Ive never had any problem with our characterising Mary Kelly as a prostitute, although Im unsure if she had adjusted to that step down a rung from what seems to be Bordello and fancy dress start-off.

I think theres lots of valid reasons that any of us can see why she should have been working....but no "accepted" evidence on record that suggests she was in fact working that night. And a precedent had been set for what Mary does when in arrears before....she continues to default on payment until eviction....maybe too heavily relying on the Joe Barnetts of the world to come up with money for her, and apparently working only enough to earn her drink and food and none left for the roof over her head.

I believe we know by the statements regarding Mary Kelly that she sold herself on the streets, and in the absence of any contrary data, I believe we also know she has not historically been either responsible towards, nor overtly concerned by, running arrears in rent.

On the night she died, I feel the evidence we do have suggests Mary went on a bender, on someone elses nickel, and came home bombed and chipper.

Best regards Brad

Hey,

I am sure she got bombed and chipper on someone elses nickel and you are right we have no evidence what Kelly's motives were for going out that night. Maybe she just wanted to get bombed and she did not care anything at all about the rent. However, we do have evidence that she was out working or playing that night. Bringing men back to her room. I believe that sometime after 3:00am Kelly brought her Killer back to Millers Court.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

Hey,

However, we do have evidence that she was out working or playing that night. Bringing men back to her room. I believe that sometime after 3:00am Kelly brought her Killer back to Millers Court.

Your friend, Brad

Hi Brad,

I just captured the above because the only real evidence that we have, meaning trustworthy and believed by the police, is that Mary brought a man home Thursday night, and was heard to sing off and on for over an hour...and her room was said to have been quiet, and dark by 1:30am Friday morning...in contrast to the lit, vocal one that was seen and heard earlier as Mary Ann left on one of her work searches.

I think an interpretation of the above leads to supposition that Mary was indeed entertaining a man in her room, but not horizontally. And that this visit seems to have either led to union of the parties, or that it was completed by 1:30am.

If you just use the accepted data...and I dont know why you wouldnt....we know of no activity involving Mary Jane or her room from 1:30am on. With witnesses passing her door, or going in another directly across from hers, a few times until 3am. We also know she is found in bed almost fully undressed, where the attack commenced by the medical data, and we can surmise that at the time she may have fallen asleep she was weary and intoxicated.

The cry is heard at around 3:45am....which means almost 2.5 hours has passed since anything has been heard from Mary or her room. Which would then lead to supposition that the cry was from being startled from sleep, not threatened, ...which would tie nicely with the fact that no subsequent noises were heard, and both ear witnesses seemingly were satisfied that no real danger was imminent. Being startled from sleep would produce some vocalizations I would imagine, and the fact that no further sounds...including voices....are heard from that point on seems to me that once she realized who was there and why she was wakened, she would not need to say anything else if it was someone she knew well enough to let them in while she is in a chemise at almost 4am....or they entered without permission, but she recognized the man backlit by the gaslamp by the Keylers door.

I truly believe the evidence suggests that this acquisition, attack and murder begins in room 13.....and it was not fueled by a stranger being accompanied to the room by the occupant.

Cheers.

[Chava]

That fish supper: from what I can discover, the body can take up to 5 hours to digest food, but generally takes 3-4 hours. Kelly was drinking heavily that night, so I'm not sure if that affects anything. Let's assume it takes 4 hours to empty her stomach. We know that she came back home at 11.45 pm with Blotchy Face and a pot of ale, but nothing was said about fish and chips, and I assume Cox would have noticed and recognized a big smelly newspaper parcel. So she ate earlier--let's say around 11.30--in which case she could be killed at 3.30 am at the outside. Or she ate later, after 1.30 am. In which case she could have died around 5.30 am or before. The food in the stomach was identifiable, and I don't know how long it stays identifiable. But if we knew that, we could surely come down to a better understanding of the time she died.

[perrymason]

That fish supper: from what I can discover, the body can take up to 5 hours to digest food, but generally takes 3-4 hours. Kelly was drinking heavily that night, so I'm not sure if that affects anything. Let's assume it takes 4 hours to empty her stomach. We know that she came back home at 11.45 pm with Blotchy Face and a pot of ale, but nothing was said about fish and chips, and I assume Cox would have noticed and recognized a big smelly newspaper parcel. So she ate earlier--let's say around 11.30--in which case she could be killed at 3.30 am at the outside. Or she ate later, after 1.30 am. In which case she could have died around 5.30 am or before. The food in the stomach was identifiable, and I don't know how long it stays identifiable. But if we knew that, we could surely come down to a better understanding of the time she died.

Hi Chava,

The key to the meal is when the body stopped the digestive process, and that Bond could determine roughly....and its in keeping with what you've described.

We know Blotchy had a pot of ale...was it Fish Chowder instead of beer? Who knows. She was pretty wobbly already, I doubt she needed any more booze to get some singing inspiration. Maybe her and Blotchy ate, then came to the room.

Cheers mate.

[Chava]

Hi Chava,

The key to the meal is when the body stopped the digestive process, and that Bond could determine roughly....and its in keeping with what you've described.

We know Blotchy had a pot of ale...was it Fish Chowder instead of beer? Who knows. She was pretty wobbly already, I doubt she needed any more booze to get some singing inspiration. Maybe her and Blotchy ate, then came to the room.

Cheers mate.

That's what I'm assuming. I don't see any way that she eats after she stops singing, because the timing is too acute. Even if she left bang on 1.20 am, and Prater went in to see McCarthy a couple of minutes earlier and so missed her, I can't see her getting to the chippie, buying the meal or having it bought for her, and eating it much earlier than 1.40 am and I think that's pushing it. Given Bond mentions the contents of the intestines ahead of the stomach, I suspect there was more in there, so that pushes the time of eating back by an hour and a half to two hours and maybe as much as three to three and a half hours. Which means that the earliest she could have died would be 3.10 am. If we are buying Kudzu's story, she picks up Mr A at around 2.05 and walks up the court with him around 2.15. So he sits and chats to her for an hour or more before he kills her? I don't think so.

However, if she shares a fish supper with Blotchy Face--and she is still rolling drunk when she reaches Millers Court, so probably hadn't eaten much before that, say around 11.30 pm--the timeline takes us to 1.00 am to 2.30 am. This doesn't disprove Hutchinson's account. But it does suggest to me that she ate before she was seen by Mary Ann Cox. If that's the case, I'm not surprised no one remembers serving her. I imagine Blotchy stood the meal and went into the chippie to buy it while Kelly waited outside. Those places were stalls serving strictly take-out food.

[perrymason]

If that's the case, I'm not surprised no one remembers serving her. I imagine Blotchy stood the meal and went into the chippie to buy it while Kelly waited outside. Those places were stalls serving strictly take-out food.

A1 point there....he's paying, so he'd wait in line. I think that for now, Im fine with the meal having occurred between leaving the pub and 1:30am...exactly when and where....Im not so troubled by....but I do like the above from you.

Cheers mate.

[celee]

Hi,

I was watching a western the other day were the cowboy picked up a prostitute and they went back to a room. The prostitute removed her cloths down to her chemise. I wonder if it was no uncommon for a working girl to undress to her under cloths before bumping boots

I have a big problem with time. I feel the Ripper would strike quickly after entering Kelly's room. He may have let Kelly undress but I doubt he would have entertained her for any period of time. Since I believe Kelly brought her killer home and I believe that Kelly was killed around 3:45am, I feel she had to have gone back out after three in the morning.

Your friend, Brad

[perrymason]

Hi Brad,

Ill leave the tales of the dusty road aside for a minute....but a good point,...that she ate........(we have evidence she did)......that her room was dark and quiet from 1:30am on.......(no-one heard the cry at 3:45 from Marys room).....and that she was found in bed partly dressed.....in and of itself suggests that she didnt go out, she went to bed near 1:30 and her killer got into that room later and killed her there, at some point after 1:30am. Forensically they concluded she was attacked on the bed.

I believe the cry was hers myself....but I believe it was the way it was described and interpreted by the witnesses and the lack of sounds following it that suggest she was alarmed...startled, or annoyed. Because she woke because of an unexpected arrival. I feel she was killed after 3:45...that her killer was in her room for sometime...not killing her...which would allow the witnesses to doze back off....and that suggests she knew him.

Cheers Brad.

[caz]

Hi All,

Another mammoth thread I’ve just ploughed through. Sad, or what?

Regarding Kelly`s concerns over her rent arrears I believe a number of factors should be considered:

Barnett visits Kelly on Thursday evening to say sorry I cannot give you any money.

It is approaching the end of the first full week that Kelly has spent as sole occupier of Millers Court… McCarthy will be aware that Barnett has left the premises.

Bowyer is asked to visit No.13 to collect some rent Friday morning.

Excellent points from Jon there.

McCarthy may also have been aware of Joe’s natural pride as a breadwinner. When he left, so did any objections to Mary going back on the game, and her landlord may have decided it was about time she could start coughing up a bit of back rent.

Cox claimed she was having trouble sleeping that night because she owed money. That could indicate that McCarthy had made it clear to both women (and anyone else currently behind with their rent) that he would be expecting to collect some before they went gadding off to enjoy the Lord Mayor’s Parade.

I don’t know how much of Hutch’s account was drawn from personal experience, but the bit that has always rung true to me is where Mary asks him to lend her sixpence, knowing that he has been good for the odd bob or two in the past, and when he can’t she politely takes her leave, saying she must find some money. Now that is at least consistent with Joe giving her money when he can, but having none to spare for her on the Thursday evening. It would also be consistent with any immediate concerns Mary had over whether she would still have her own bed come the weekend.

So even if Hutch’s encounter with Mary on Commercial St that night didn’t happen, I suspect it was based on a similar encounter at some other time, or at least a working knowledge of what would be typical ‘Mary’ behaviour: the ability to charm money out of a man who had it, or an apology from a man who didn’t.

It all adds up, if anyone is willing to see it, to Mary setting out that night to find someone to rely on for her three most immediate needs: booze, a full tummy and just enough to keep McCarthy sweet for another week.

Finding a man like Blotchy, who was apparently good for the first two, would take care of Chava’s objections here:

If she was really concerned about eviction, she would, in my opinion, have gone to work. She would not have gone out on the piss. And, after taking care of Blotchy Face, she would not have wasted golden triple whore time singing in her room.

And on this topic, an hour and twenty minutes is a long time to sit in a miserable dump of a room doing not much but singing. I would love to know what else she was doing then. In my opinion, this only makes sense if she sang for a while, got ready for bed, sang some more, went to bed. I can't think what keeps her home and singing during peak hours for her trade, but sends her out into the far reaches of the night looking for business at 1.30 or so just as the punters are beginning to go home. If she's not worried about going out earlier, why does she go out then?

Of course she’d have gone out on the piss - if it was at someone like Blotchy’s expense.

We don’t know what she would have considered ‘taking care of Blotchy’, and more to the point we don’t know what Blotchy would have considered ‘taking care of Blotchy’. But if he treated her to booze all night and a fish supper, and then put up with her singing, she would surely to God have seen him as the soft touch of the century. If the money was not on the table by then, how hard would it have been for her to coax it from a nicely boozed-up Blotchy’s pockets? That’s what would have kept her home and singing during peak hours for her trade.

If she asked Blotchy for money and he obliged, she would not have needed to go out again. But there was no sign of any money when the murder was discovered. So maybe he couldn’t or wouldn’t help out and was quickly ejected. But in that case would she have carried on singing or gone straight out again to look for a better bet, cross with herself for misjudging the man? She certainly seems to have misjudged someone that night.

I think theres lots of valid reasons that any of us can see why she should have been working....but no "accepted" evidence on record that suggests she was in fact working that night. And a precedent had been set for what Mary does when in arrears before....she continues to default on payment until eviction....maybe too heavily relying on the Joe Barnetts of the world to come up with money for her, and apparently working only enough to earn her drink and food and none left for the roof over her head...

...On the night she died, I feel the evidence we do have suggests Mary went on a bender, on someone elses nickel, and came home bombed and chipper.

If Mary was relying too heavily on the Joe Barnetts of the world for the bare necessities of existence as she knew it, the evidence certainly fits with her having to rely on someone other than the Joe Barnett on the night she died. It’s really not a stretch too far to include in those bare necessities the assurance of still having her bed to sleep in the following night.

Why wouldn’t she have asked Blotchy for help, whether he was a bosom buddy, casual acquaintance, prospective new beau or someone she had never seen before that night?

I believe 2 givens were used by Police when they first discovered this murder, one that the killer likely knew her assailant, and that 2, Jack the Ripper probably did it.

I’m not sure how that helps anyone who believes Mary was killed by someone she knew. If this was the case, a third given is that the police would have concentrated their efforts to find Jack on all the men who knew Mary, or claimed to know her, or were alleged by others to know her, and a fourth is that they drew a complete blank.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chava]

Ah, Caz, that was posted before I found out how closely our boy Blotchy Face resembled the description of the man who attacked Ada Wilson and the man who several different eyewitnesses saw with other victims just before they died. I am now revising any theories I had to include Blotchy Face. If Ada Wilsons's account of her attack is true, then her assailant went after her when she opened the door to him. She made it sound completely random, but there is more than a suggestion she was on the game. It's possible that (a) he attacked her prematurely at the door as she brought him into her room, or (b) he left her room and then went back, but still attacked her too soon and in a position where other people heard what was going on and came out to see. The attacker barely got away. If Wilson's 'sunburnt man' was Cox's 'blotchy-faced man'--and both had fair hair and skin as well as an auburn moustache, and were the same age, height and weight--then he's learned from that to wait until the target is in the room and can be silenced ahead of killing her. It's possible that scenario (b) above, in which the attacker leaves the room and then comes back, having scoped out the terrain, is what happened here. Blotchy-Face leaves, keeps an eye open, waits until the coast is clear, goes in again...