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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #1411  
Old 07-06-2017, 07:56 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi,

is that Kopka et al., 2007?

Pierre
Hi Pierre,
Konopka, et.al. 2007.
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  #1412  
Old 07-06-2017, 08:01 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Adam View Post
Hi John G

As to the question:Yes, I agree, to argue otherwise appears counter-intuitive, and I do believe, on balance, that Kelly was a Ripper victim. And yet...Where do you draw the line?

As i read in the dissertation of Sam Flynn concerning the Eddows murder, there are not so many differences in technique and "performance" if you will between her and Kelly, and i tend to belive that - if in fact the head would have been removed or the incisions would be on the back I guess I would start doubting.......

But I´m used to belive the mathematics and referring to Bayes it is more unlikely to have two killers/serialists at the same time having quite the same signature......

I would not exclude any of the victims you mentioned, it may be they all are done by the same hand ---- again Bayes.....

Mark
Hi Mark

Yes, an excellent point about Kelly not being decapitated, which happily further undermines Fish's fishy, wishy-washy theory.
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  #1413  
Old 07-06-2017, 08:34 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
So now it is proposed that what Baxter was recorded as saying was a mishearing!
Or a typo. I think a mishearing is rather less likely, as nobody would ever utter such a clunky sentence as "bleeding from the several vessels". It's almost certainly a typesetter's error, a misinterpretation of what the journalist wrote down. "severed" looks like "several", even when typed out, and more so when handwritten.

"bleeding from the several vessels" is a decidedly weird way of saying things, by any standards of English usage.

"bleeding from the severed vessels" makes complete and perfect sense, both from the standpoint of English usage and in the context of what was being discussed by Wynne Baxter.
Quote:
But you stick with your picture, Gareth, by all means!
I will, because I'm 100% certain that the original word was "severed".
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 07-06-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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  #1414  
Old 07-06-2017, 08:51 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Or a typo. I think a mishearing is rather less likely, as nobody would ever utter such a clunky sentence as "bleeding from the several vessels". It's almost certainly a typesetter's error, a misinterpretation of what the journalist wrote down. "severed" looks like "several", even when typed out, and more so when handwritten.

"bleeding from the several vessels" is a decidedly weird way of saying things, by any standards of English usage.

"bleeding from the severed vessels" makes complete and perfect sense, both from the standpoint of English usage and from what was being discussed by Wynne Baxter.I will, because I'm 100% certain that the original word was "severed".
Hi Gareth,

In your dissertation on Eddowes, you argue that both Eddowes and Kelly had flesh removed from the abdomen to make it "more amenable to efficient dismembowelment" . Is this still your opinion? Do you agree that Chapman's emaciated state might have influenced the perpetrator's approach? Or that, in the case of Kelly, the perpetrator may have just focused on destroying the body, resulting in random cuts and pieces of flesh being more-or-less gouged out?
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  #1415  
Old 07-06-2017, 08:59 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
In your dissertation on Eddowes, you argue that both Eddowes and Kelly had flesh removed from the abdomen to make it "more amenable to efficient dismembowelment" . Is this still your opinion? Do you agree that Chapman's emaciated state might have influenced the perpetrator's approach? Or that, in the case of Kelly, the perpetrator may have just focused on destroying the body, resulting in random cuts and pieces of flesh being more-or-less gouged out?
Hello John

I'm not being an arse, but I'll be happy to answer your question if you moved it to another thread. I wouldn't to kick this thread off on yet another tangent, if you get my drift
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  #1416  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:04 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Hello John

I'm not being an arse, but I'll be happy to answer your question if you moved it to another thread. I wouldn't to kick this thread off on yet another tangent, if you get my drift
Fair enough, Gareth, I'm probably in a bit of a naughty mood today. And I agree, this thread appears to have got caught up in a snow "drift"/avalanche!

When I've got more time I'll start a separate thread on the subject, which will obviously encompass the theory that JtR was also responsible for the Torso victims-a theory that I, personally, would reject.

Last edited by John G : 07-06-2017 at 09:11 AM.
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  #1417  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:11 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
I agree, this thread appears to have got caught up in a snow "drift"/avalanche!
It'll plough ahead regardless, no doubt
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  #1418  
Old 07-06-2017, 09:28 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Hi John

What are your sources for this ?

Of the above three victims, Kelly and Chapman had similar neck wounds that completely circled the neck, whereas Nichols had 2 cuts to the throat, and McKenzie had one entry wound to the neck which had been stabbed twice.
Hi Jon,

Of course, I was referring to Lynn Cates' theory. Dr Phillips' said this about Chapman:

"There were two distinct clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other and separated by about half an inch."

Of course, the spine extends to the neck.

That suggests that Nichols, Chapman and Mackenzie all had double neck wounds.

Last edited by John G : 07-06-2017 at 09:30 AM.
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  #1419  
Old 07-06-2017, 10:41 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Lots of complex medical evidence being sifted through here but I'm going to take a simple approach if I may. Just my opinions here.

Was 30-40 mins a reasonable amount of time to find a victim, kill, check for look/clean up and get to work on time......NO

Is it likely that Jack would have killed on the way to work......NO

Was CL compelled to stay at the crime scene by the arrival of the pesky Robert Paul......NO

Medical knowledge by the killer is debatable. But is there any evidence that CL had any......NO

Is there any evidence or even hints that Paul suspected him......NO

Is there any evidence or even hints that the police suspected him......NO

Is there any evidence of a 'Mizen Scam,'......NO

Was there any need for a 'Mizen Scam,'......NO

Did CL avoid the Inquest......NO

Did CL gain any advantage from using the name Cross at the Inquest......NO

Did CL give a false address to throw the police of the scent......NO

Can CL be linked to any of the other murders......NO

Can CL be placed at any other crime scene......NO

Is there any evidence that CL was ever violent......NO

Is there any evidence that he had an issue with prostitutes......NO

Is there any reason why CL the Ripper should have stopped after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly......NO

Can CL be linked to any post Kelly murder......NO

Can we say for certain that CL was a psychopath......NO

Does the medical evidence prove that CL killed Nichols.....NO

Was Cross/Lechmere Jack the Ripper......have a guess.


Regards
Herlock
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  #1420  
Old 07-06-2017, 11:40 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Lots of complex medical evidence being sifted through here but I'm going to take a simple approach if I may. Just my opinions here.

Was 30-40 mins a reasonable amount of time to find a victim, kill, check for look/clean up and get to work on time......NO

Is it likely that Jack would have killed on the way to work......NO

Was CL compelled to stay at the crime scene by the arrival of the pesky Robert Paul......NO

Medical knowledge by the killer is debatable. But is there any evidence that CL had any......NO

Is there any evidence or even hints that Paul suspected him......NO

Is there any evidence or even hints that the police suspected him......NO

Is there any evidence of a 'Mizen Scam,'......NO

Was there any need for a 'Mizen Scam,'......NO

Did CL avoid the Inquest......NO

Did CL gain any advantage from using the name Cross at the Inquest......NO

Did CL give a false address to throw the police of the scent......NO

Can CL be linked to any of the other murders......NO

Can CL be placed at any other crime scene......NO

Is there any evidence that CL was ever violent......NO

Is there any evidence that he had an issue with prostitutes......NO

Is there any reason why CL the Ripper should have stopped after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly......NO

Can CL be linked to any post Kelly murder......NO

Can we say for certain that CL was a psychopath......NO

Does the medical evidence prove that CL killed Nichols.....NO

Was Cross/Lechmere Jack the Ripper......have a guess.


Regards
Herlock
Excellent post, Herlock, which I think just about wraps it up.
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