Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by harry 1 hour and 23 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - by Abby Normal 3 hours ago.
Witnesses: Pearly Poll's Husband - by MrBarnett 4 hours ago.
Witnesses: Pearly Poll's Husband - by MrBarnett 5 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by OneRound 6 hours ago.
Shades of Whitechapel: The Golden State Serial Killer - by Abby Normal 6 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (76 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: The Golden State Serial Killer - (12 posts)
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - (10 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Was Whitechapel really any worse than other areas of London? - (5 posts)
Witnesses: Pearly Poll's Husband - (4 posts)
Maybrick, James: Too Sensible & Competent - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1771  
Old 12-31-2017, 03:49 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanSherlock View Post
Happy Birthday John!

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas and wishing you a Happy New Year

I think the timeline of events is very significant. I'm trying to say this without sounding prejudiced to my conclusion; If Wallace was guilty, then the timing lines up exactly with what you would expect. At least from my POV, he would not be able to act until the milk boy had come and left and then he would have to spring into action right away.

Whether you think this is even possible is another question we've debated in the past as regards to the limited time he would have, being bloodfree, and the weapon disposal. But I think it's a bit odd that the time line fits that scenario, when if he left literally just a few minutes earlier, he would be totally in the clear.

And as CAZ points out, one could be forgiven for expecting that he would do so.

Therefore it becomes important to consider whether it is reasonable that he left when he did, changed collar, had tea etc. It strikes me if he was that casual about heading on business to an unfamiliar address across town, it is odd he went all.

His going on a lousy winter's evening when his wife was sick with cold, on a day he made 400 calls shows that for some reason he found it very important to go. He could be forgiven for not going at all and blowing Qualtrough off or assuming it was a prank. In his shoes, I probably would have done so. Instead, he decides to go, showcasing how critical this prospective client was to him. One could argue that he was sufficiently enticed by the chance at a commission or "professional recognition", but then why was he so casual with the timing, arriving in the neighborhood right before 7:30 without knowing precisely where he was going? This also, to my mind, makes it more surprising that he did not consult a map beforehand for such a crucial business venture.
Thanks for the birthday greetings, AS!

I agree that he could be forgiven for not going to the appointment at all. As you graphically point out, he'd already had an arduous day at work, which must have involved a great deal of walking as he didn't have a car. And, of course, he was also disabled and was recovering from the flu.

However, although I think the decision must have been marginal-he indicated to Caird that he might not go- ultimately he might have just needed the money. For instance, he'd been off work for a significant period, and as this was the 1930s I doubt he would have qualified for sick pay. And his salary was probably largely, if not entirely, commission based anyway.

Nonetheless, once he decides to go, I think the timeline makes sense, I.e. arriving home just after 6:00pm, following his last regular appointment, has a light tea, and then a quick wash and change of dress before leaving for the tram.

Why didn't he consult a map? Well, to begin with I assume he didn't possess one. Moreover, he might have only decided to go at the last minute: He told Caird that he might not go and Beattie had mentioned it was a bad place to be after dark.

I also think there was a certain arrogance about the man. For instance, he stated at the chess club, "I belong to Liverpool. I have a tongue in my head."

Moreover, timewise would it have been practical for him to have consulted a map on the day of the visit, i.e. from a library, considering he had no car and had numerous appointments to attend?

Last edited by John G : 12-31-2017 at 04:02 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1772  
Old 12-31-2017, 04:45 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too, Herlock. Although I'm a bit late for the Merry Christmas, I'm afraid! Mind you, as it's my birthday today I shall be enjoying an extended New Year celebration!
Happy birthday John. Have a good one
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1773  
Old 12-31-2017, 05:30 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,287
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Happy birthday John. Have a good one
Thanks Herlock. And Happy New Year!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1774  
Old 12-31-2017, 05:47 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,137
Default

I think Wallace did it. Conveniently, the call was made before he got to the chess club. You'd think that if someone was trying to send him on a wild goose chase they'd want to speak with him to deal with any questions or misgivings he might have. Why create a convoluted plot when they could just rob the place while he was at the chess club? That obviously wouldn't work for Wallace if he was planning to off his old lady, so he had to create a scenario wherein he was lured away from the family home, hence all that faffing about looking for Menlove Gardens East, calling the attention of any Tom, Dick or Harry he could find. It smacks of someone creating their own alibi. Yes, I'm sure there are reasonable rebuttals to these points (I've read most of them) but Wallace's behaviour along with the implausibility of a set-up put me firmly in the guilty camp.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1775  
Old 12-31-2017, 06:36 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanSherlock View Post
Happy Birthday John!

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas and wishing you a Happy New Year

I think the timeline of events is very significant. I'm trying to say this without sounding prejudiced to my conclusion; If Wallace was guilty, then the timing lines up exactly with what you would expect. At least from my POV, he would not be able to act until the milk boy had come and left and then he would have to spring into action right away.

Whether you think this is even possible is another question we've debated in the past as regards to the limited time he would have, being bloodfree, and the weapon disposal. But I think it's a bit odd that the time line fits that scenario, when if he left literally just a few minutes earlier, he would be totally in the clear.

And as CAZ points out, one could be forgiven for expecting that he would do so.

Therefore it becomes important to consider whether it is reasonable that he left when he did, changed collar, had tea etc. It strikes me if he was that casual about heading on business to an unfamiliar address across town, it is odd he went all.

His going on a lousy winter's evening when his wife was sick with cold, on a day he made 400 calls shows that for some reason he found it very important to go. He could be forgiven for not going at all and blowing Qualtrough off or assuming it was a prank. In his shoes, I probably would have done so. Instead, he decides to go, showcasing how critical this prospective client was to him. One could argue that he was sufficiently enticed by the chance at a commission or "professional recognition", but then why was he so casual with the timing, arriving in the neighborhood right before 7:30 without knowing precisely where he was going? This also, to my mind, makes it more surprising that he did not consult a map beforehand for such a crucial business venture.
Hi AS, a Happy New Year to you.

One thing to remember when we talk about how much time Wallace had to complete his ‘plan’ is that the plan was seriously impaired by Alan Close’s bicycle. We can safely assume that Julia would have dealt with the milk deliveries and so Wallace wouldn’t have wanted to kill Julia until close had been and gone. Obviously it would have been deeply suspicious if, for the first time ever, Wallace himself had appeared at the door to take delivery. And so he would have intended to kill Julia earlier in the evening. With Close being late he would have started to get nervous (after all, if he had to abandon the murder he wouldn’t have been able to use the Qualtrough plan again.) He would have been panicking about having time to complete the crime and still get to Menlove Gardens. Maybe it was only then that he came up with a way to minimise the blood contamination by using the mackintosh as a shield (although that might have already been a part of his plan.) After all we have no other reasonable explaination for why it was found beneath Julia.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1776  
Old 12-31-2017, 08:35 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 475
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi AS, a Happy New Year to you.

One thing to remember when we talk about how much time Wallace had to complete his ‘plan’ is that the plan was seriously impaired by Alan Close’s bicycle. We can safely assume that Julia would have dealt with the milk deliveries and so Wallace wouldn’t have wanted to kill Julia until close had been and gone. Obviously it would have been deeply suspicious if, for the first time ever, Wallace himself had appeared at the door to take delivery. And so he would have intended to kill Julia earlier in the evening. With Close being late he would have started to get nervous (after all, if he had to abandon the murder he wouldn’t have been able to use the Qualtrough plan again.) He would have been panicking about having time to complete the crime and still get to Menlove Gardens. Maybe it was only then that he came up with a way to minimise the blood contamination by using the mackintosh as a shield (although that might have already been a part of his plan.) After all we have no other reasonable explaination for why it was found beneath Julia.
Hi Herlock and all,

Forgive my ignorance but was it usual for Close to be seen by his customers?

I would have expected the young milko to leave a pre-arranged order on the doorstep and then scoot off to make the next delivery. [That's always been my experience of milk deliveries in this country from the early 1960s to today.]

Unless he was a strong believer in customer care, there seems little reason on the face of it for Close to waste his own time in stopping to see Julia.

Accordingly, would Wallace have been able to rely on Close seeing Julia?

As a bit of an aside although it's currently influencing my thinking - Wallace's actions on the night were not what many of us would have done and indeed were odd. However, rather than being a murderer, maybe that just demonstrates he was ... errrh ... odd.

With best wishes for the New Year to all,

OneRound
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1777  
Old 12-31-2017, 10:12 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRound View Post
Hi Herlock and all,

Forgive my ignorance but was it usual for Close to be seen by his customers?

I would have expected the young milko to leave a pre-arranged order on the doorstep and then scoot off to make the next delivery. [That's always been my experience of milk deliveries in this country from the early 1960s to today.]

Unless he was a strong believer in customer care, there seems little reason on the face of it for Close to waste his own time in stopping to see Julia.

Accordingly, would Wallace have been able to rely on Close seeing Julia?

As a bit of an aside although it's currently influencing my thinking - Wallace's actions on the night were not what many of us would have done and indeed were odd. However, rather than being a murderer, maybe that just demonstrates he was ... errrh ... odd.

With best wishes for the New Year to all,

OneRound
Hi OneRound,

Milk bottles were in use in the 30’s but perhaps not everywhere as Close said that he would bring milk and the customer would fill their own jug from it. So he would have expected to see Julia as it would have been a part of the housewive’s ‘job’ in those days. No modern men around of course

Your right of course that odd behaviour doesn’t necessarily equate to guilt.

Best wishes for the New Year to you too.
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

Last edited by Herlock Sholmes : 12-31-2017 at 10:15 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1778  
Old 01-01-2018, 03:38 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 475
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi OneRound,

Milk bottles were in use in the 30’s but perhaps not everywhere as Close said that he would bring milk and the customer would fill their own jug from it. So he would have expected to see Julia as it would have been a part of the housewive’s ‘job’ in those days. No modern men around of course

Your right of course that odd behaviour doesn’t necessarily equate to guilt.

Best wishes for the New Year to you too.
Hi Herlock - thanks for confirming matters about the milk delivery. Appreciated.

As we know, Close was late with his delivery that evening. If he had been a bit earlier than usual, he would have been outside the house and seen Julia before Wallace got home - that's right, isn't it? If so, that would have hindered (although probably not totally prevented) a guilty Wallace from using the milk delivery and sighting of Julia as part of his defence.

Even if Wallace did kill his wife (and some of you folks have got me thinking more along the lines he might have done), was Close really intended to be a key part of his defence? As I've mentioned before, Wallace's defence about the sighting of Julia by Close wasn't helped by Close on his own but by another person being able to pinpoint the time of Close's delivery which, as far as I'm aware, was random and unexpected.

Btw, in case my cyber friend Caz is looking in, you're on your own with any quips about housewives' jobs!

Best regards,

OneRound
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1779  
Old 01-01-2018, 05:17 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: The West Midlands
Posts: 1,621
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRound View Post
Hi Herlock - thanks for confirming matters about the milk delivery. Appreciated.

As we know, Close was late with his delivery that evening. If he had been a bit earlier than usual, he would have been outside the house and seen Julia before Wallace got home - that's right, isn't it? If so, that would have hindered (although probably not totally prevented) a guilty Wallace from using the milk delivery and sighting of Julia as part of his defence.

Even if Wallace did kill his wife (and some of you folks have got me thinking more along the lines he might have done), was Close really intended to be a key part of his defence? As I've mentioned before, Wallace's defence about the sighting of Julia by Close wasn't helped by Close on his own but by another person being able to pinpoint the time of Close's delivery which, as far as I'm aware, was random and unexpected.

Btw, in case my cyber friend Caz is looking in, you're on your own with any quips about housewives' jobs!

Best regards,

OneRound
Wallace, if guilty, would have seen Close’a appearance as the starter’s gun for the evenings events. If he’d have answered the door to Close then the police would have inferred that it was because Julia was already dead. Cross being late would have worried him, as time went on, because of the time that it would have left him. There would have come a point when he’d have had to have said either a) “looks like no milk delivery today so on with the plan.” - Unlikely in the extreme in my opinion. A milk delivery would have been made somehow.
Or b) “I don’t have enough time now. I have to cancel my plan.” - Likely - this would have meant though that he’d have to come up with another plan (another mysterious phonecall would be a non-starter.)

I can’t recall exactly, and I have no books near, if Close being on time would have found Wallace back home yet or not. Wallace would only have had to have checked the milk jug though to see whether Close had been or not.

I’m confident of Caz’s sense of humour OneRound. Plus.....she doesn’t know where I live
__________________
Regards

Herlock






"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #1780  
Old 01-03-2018, 07:55 AM
Premium Member
caz caz is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5,990
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRound View Post
Hi Herlock - thanks for confirming matters about the milk delivery. Appreciated.

As we know, Close was late with his delivery that evening. If he had been a bit earlier than usual, he would have been outside the house and seen Julia before Wallace got home - that's right, isn't it? If so, that would have hindered (although probably not totally prevented) a guilty Wallace from using the milk delivery and sighting of Julia as part of his defence.
Hi OneRound,

I think the idea was that a guilty Wallace simply could not have risked killing Julia until after the milk boy had been and gone, regardless of what time that was, or whether he would later confirm seeing Julia alive at that time. I'm not sure how much it would have mattered if he had delivered early, before Wallace got home, if he was only likely to have seen Julia in any case. Wallace could have checked if the milk had already been delivered when he got home and acted accordingly. He could then only have done his best to make the first sighting of himself, after leaving Julia dead, as close in time as humanly possible to the last sighting of her alive by the milk boy, whenever that turned out to be.

Quote:
Even if Wallace did kill his wife (and some of you folks have got me thinking more along the lines he might have done), was Close really intended to be a key part of his defence? As I've mentioned before, Wallace's defence about the sighting of Julia by Close wasn't helped by Close on his own but by another person being able to pinpoint the time of Close's delivery which, as far as I'm aware, was random and unexpected.
I think it was probably just a bonus for Wallace if the milk boy saw Julia and gave a time that would allow for reasonable doubt that he could have done the deed and been on his way that quickly. As you suggest, there was no guarantee that Close would guess the time correctly, or have it pinpointed by anyone else. Erring on the early side would have left Wallace with a slightly weaker alibi, but erring on the late side could effectively have saved his bacon if accepted.

Love,

Caz
X
__________________
"Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov



Last edited by caz : 01-03-2018 at 08:01 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.