overkill

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The word overkill was mentioned on the Tabram podcast, and it dawned on me that frenzy would sum up this murder.
I have always viewed Tabram as being the first of the series, and I placed importance on the number of wounds ie 39, and that notion has not left me, but there is a alternative view, which is original, that being that Martha was attacked not by a man but my no other then her drinking companion of that evening Pearly Poll.
Reasons for this include, the weapon causing the wounds was according to Killeen a short bladed knife , except for one wound to the heart.
Is it therefore not inconceivable that the weapon used, may have been the type carried by a woman?
I am not aware of the figures involving overkill, but I would suggest that murders committed by women, using the gun/knife would involve just that.
I only to well remember in my youth having a friend who acted violently on me, attacking me whilst we were both under the influence for no reason then i did not agree with him over some trifle matter, and his attack on me was in a total frenzied mode using fists and feet in a vicious attack which left me needing many stitches
Within seconds his attitude returned to normal. and he could not have been more sorry and confused.
If one could relate that to a scenerio of Tabram/Pearly, we could have PP losing it, producing a short bladed knife, and attacking Tabram in a frenzy.
Realizing what she had done , and aware that her friend was still alive, and aware that her friend jhad somewhere on her person, a long bladed knife that she carried, used that to finish her of.
A speculative explanation, but original, the masculine Pearly Poll losing her rag, with her drinking companion, kills her in a fit of diminished responsibility, and in the aftermath becomes suicidal, and then attempts to bring soldiers into suspicion.
Either that or should i go back to my 39 theory.??
Regards Richard.

[harry]

Richard,
What of a person described as'Devoid of emotion'.Do you not think a person described such,as being capable of the overkill you so describe? Are there such people?Would they show frenzy?

[Bob Hinton]

Amount of wounds

The number of wounds on Martha Tabram has no real significance. In a frenzied attack it is just about impossible to count the number of blows struck accurately.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

What I don't get is how no-one heard Tabram scream or anything.

[Hellrider]

What I don't get is how no-one heard Tabram scream or anything.

...or nobody wanted to have heard anything for a variety of reasons. The couple living in the room next to the murder site comes to mind (unfortunately I forgot the name though ) who were most likely to have heard something (if not MUST have heard, due to the short distance), but by admitting to that fact would have had to admit that they did nothing to ascertain the origin of these noises.

[Chava]

...or nobody wanted to have heard anything for a variety of reasons. The couple living in the room next to the murder site comes to mind (unfortunately I forgot the name though ) who were most likely to have heard something (if not MUST have heard, due to the short distance), but by admitting to that fact would have had to admit that they did nothing to ascertain the origin of these noises.

It's possible she was silenced by a blow to the head just before she reached the landing. Let's posit the possibility that she was leading her punter up the stairs to that nice dark area. He clubs her across the head just as she gets there, and grabs her to make sure she doesn't fall with a thump. (He must have been strong to be able to do this!) He lays her out and commences to stab. She is unconscious at first and then dead. And let's not forget the 'effusion of blood' in the cranial area.

No noise whatsoever from this scenario. And, like other Ripper kills, the victim is silenced immediately and dead very very quickly thereafter. It's after they are gone that he really gets down to work.

[Shelley]

Hi,
The word overkill was mentioned on the Tabram podcast, and it dawned on me that frenzy would sum up this murder.
I have always viewed Tabram as being the first of the series, and I placed importance on the number of wounds ie 39, and that notion has not left me, but there is a alternative view, which is original, that being that Martha was attacked not by a man but my no other then her drinking companion of that evening Pearly Poll.
Reasons for this include, the weapon causing the wounds was according to Killeen a short bladed knife , except for one wound to the heart.
Is it therefore not inconceivable that the weapon used, may have been the type carried by a woman?
I am not aware of the figures involving overkill, but I would suggest that murders committed by women, using the gun/knife would involve just that.
I only to well remember in my youth having a friend who acted violently on me, attacking me whilst we were both under the influence for no reason then i did not agree with him over some trifle matter, and his attack on me was in a total frenzied mode using fists and feet in a vicious attack which left me needing many stitches
Within seconds his attitude returned to normal. and he could not have been more sorry and confused.
If one could relate that to a scenerio of Tabram/Pearly, we could have PP losing it, producing a short bladed knife, and attacking Tabram in a frenzy.
Realizing what she had done , and aware that her friend was still alive, and aware that her friend jhad somewhere on her person, a long bladed knife that she carried, used that to finish her of.
A speculative explanation, but original, the masculine Pearly Poll losing her rag, with her drinking companion, kills her in a fit of diminished responsibility, and in the aftermath becomes suicidal, and then attempts to bring soldiers into suspicion.
Either that or should i go back to my 39 theory.??
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,
overkill is actually in the category of Signature, it is refered to ' Something which has nothing to do with the actual killing itself '.....So for the books sake of MO & signature, Tabram's death wouldn't neccessary be classified as an ' Overkill ', all that was stated was the stab to the heart alone could have killed Tabram, but also blood loss from the wounds could also have caused her death, well at the finish anyway. Tabram had no signatures from her killer/s so it seems.

P.S. That's why i say the deep-throat cutting in the canocial list, start with Nicholls, where her head was nearly severed, is indeed a mixture of MO & Signature, because that was evidentley ' Overkill '.

[Shelley]

Chava,
And Tabram's head could have hit the wall in an accident whilst being attacked.

[perrymason]

I dont see how anyone could look at the death of Martha Tabram and not see clear and specific evidence there was anger in the killers actions.

Other than Marys face wounds, what specific injuries on any Canonical are overtly physically angry ones?

One hand could smother her mouth or choke her while he made some stabs, she would be weakening with each successive one and not likely require silencing at some point, perhaps after the throat stabs.

But the single most relevant piece of data that relates to her killer is 2 weapons. Whatever your preference, dagger or bayonet...both were quite likely being carried or worn by men that night, legally....there was at least one large wound caused by other than a "pen knife".

Martha Tabram is frenzied overkill with stabs, by the evidence, possibly by 2 separate individuals with one only stabbing once.....Mary Kelly is deliberate overkill with cuts...but the murders in between contain some real deliberate ripping open.....and thats a Jack signature.

Jacks forte isnt just killing at all.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Martha Tabram is frenzied overkill with stabs, by the evidence, possibly by 2 separate individuals with one only stabbing once.....Mary Kelly is deliberate overkill with cuts...but the murders in between contain some real deliberate ripping open.....and thats a Jack signature.

Sigh... there you go again, Mike!

I struggle how anyone can say that "real deliberate ripping open" didn't feature in Mary Kelly's murder; nor, indeed, how anyone can overlook the fact that Catherine Eddowes' facial wounds wasn't another example of "overkill with cuts".

The key thing to note in this context is that none of the evisceration murders committed in East London during 1888 were "overkill with stabs" - in fact, stabs are conspicuous by their absence in practically every case. That's more than can be said of Tabram.

[perrymason]

Sigh... there you go again, Mike!

I struggle how anyone can say that "real deliberate ripping open" didn't feature in Mary Kelly's murder; nor, indeed, how anyone can overlook the fact that Catherine Eddowes' facial wounds wasn't another example of "overkill with cuts".

The key thing to note in this context is that none of the evisceration murders committed in East London during 1888 were "overkill with stabs" - in fact, stabs are conspicuous by their absence in practically every case. That's more than can be said of Tabram.

Im not sure you got the gist of my post Sam....the cuts on Kates face are not clearly done in anger, stabbing a woman 39 times to death was....and Mary is cut up, not just cut open. One is self entertainment, the other is locating objectives.

"Open" accessed what the killer of Polly and Annie wanted, "Up" is what some think the killer really wanted when given a room.

And as for Martha goes, it would seem we agree. Marthas killer didnt exhibit any wants or desires aside from venting and killing....Jacks victims did.

So exactly where did "I go" Sam?

[Sam Flynn]

Im not sure you got the gist of my post Sam....the cuts on Kates face are not clearly done in anger

I disagree, Mike. Leaving aside whether the killer(s) were "angry" or not at the time - we can't possibly know - it's evident that the wounds on Eddowes' face were inflicted with some considerable force. They were deep, and the killer punctured bone. Indeed, they were cuts, not stabs, but they were vicious cuts just the same. I'm reminded of a jealous child scraping a biro over the photograph of an elder sibling; or Beethoven angrily scratching out his dedication to Napoleon on the manuscript of the Eroica symphony.

[FrankO]

..."Up" is what some think the killer really wanted when given a room.

Hi Michael,

Just curious, but are you sure that's what some think? Given the fact that MJK’s complete abdomen seems to have been emptied of organs, that’s a very odd view indeed.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Leaving aside whether the killer(s) were "angry" or not at the time - we can't possibly know -...

Hi Gareth,

I agree we can't actually know, but I'd say it's a reasonable assumption that anger had something to do with what he was doing to those women. I'm sure he didn't do it because he was so fond of them.

Best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Given the fact that MJK’s complete abdomen seems to have been emptied of organs...

... indeed, her complete abdomen seems to have been emptied of abdomen - the killer left precious little of the abdominal wall intact, consistent with Bond's stating that "three large flaps of flesh... from the costal arch down to the pubes" had been removed. If that ain't focused on the abdomen, I don't know what is.