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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > "The Royal Conspiracy"

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  #11  
Old 01-14-2014, 02:53 PM
MayBea MayBea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MayBea View Post
1. The lengths of time before reporting the births: Christina 9 days, William 54 days.
54 days was 12 more than the legal limit of 42.

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As a result of the Births and Deaths Act 1874, registration was made compulsory from 1875 ... Births had to be registered within 42 days at the district or sub-district office, usually by the mother or father. If more days had elapsed but it was less than 3 months since the birth, the Superintendent Registrar had to be present...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...land_and_Wales
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2014, 02:55 PM
MayBea MayBea is offline
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Originally Posted by MayBea View Post
2. The difference in reported occupation of the father: first Baker and second Baker Journeyman.
The term Journeyman seems to have a different definition than I thought. It's more like a day labourer, journey being derived from the French for day.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/for...377-Journeyman

But I still think it has a connotation of traveling to work.
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2014, 03:13 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MayBea View Post
The term Journeyman seems to have a different definition than I thought. It's more like a day labourer, journey being derived from the French for day.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/for...377-Journeyman

But I still think it has a connotation of traveling to work.
A journeyman baker could be one who travels about but the more likely meaning is the alternative:

A Journeyman Baker being one who has completed his apprenticeship but is not yet qualified as a Master Baker.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2014, 03:18 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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G'Day Bridewell and MayBea

Quote:
A Journeyman Baker being one who has completed his apprenticeship but is not yet qualified as a Master Baker.
Employed as day labor. [ie not in permanent employment]

That is the generally accepted definition.
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There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2014, 05:18 PM
MayBea MayBea is offline
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Thank you, Bridewell and GUT.

I'll agree with your assessments and I drop suggestion #2 that Journeyman is a suspicious entry on the birth registry.

I still don't agree with others' assessments that the certificate is proof of paternity, and proof that the mother was in Liverpool for two months from the birth to the registration, and/or that Barnett would necessarily have mentioned it.

Might I mention that Jack Wilson was very talented musically. Family claims he could play every instrument by the age of ten, a claim similarly made of Sir Arthur Sullivan.

The talent and the name change to Arthur Sullivan is what led to earlier suggestions that the father was Sir Arthur Sullivan, famous patron of prostitutes.
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  #16  
Old 01-14-2014, 07:17 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Default Another Birth?

John Wilson born Everton St Ambrose 3rd October 1888
to Robert (a baker) and Mary of 24 Amos street

Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
Marys dad is John a Joiner....

Pat.........................................
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2014, 08:40 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Default Army Arthur ?

Ancestry military records
Sullivan Arthur
Loyal North Lancs Reg
Attested as a Group 7 Bakers Assistant 1917 Reg no 32915,
Address Ivyleigh ?brook Liverpool
age 30 years 1 month.

Transfer to Royal Army medical Corps 1818 Reg no 142292
Next of Kin: brother Thomas Sullivan

Letter 1923 address Liverpool mentions 13th Com?, scottish com?
Damaged Thumb in war
Received Victory Medal

May not be him but he Liverpool address, Name, Bakers assistant and medical connections fit

Pat.............................
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2014, 09:21 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Default Apologies

Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one

Pat................................
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2014, 10:48 PM
MayBea MayBea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
Marys dad is John a Joiner....
Pat, this is the correct marriage. Robert is listed as a baker.

The Robert, baker, you found married to a Mary who gave birth to a John in October 1888 are the wrong ones. They are still on Amos St. with Mary's parents in 1891. Their last name is Matthews, not Kelly. John is missing.

1891 Census
Liverpool
24 Amos St

Joseph Matthews lorry driver b Ireland
Mary Matthews wife b Scotland
Robert Wilson son in law baker b Liverpool
Mary Wilson wife b Liverpool
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2014, 10:55 PM
MayBea MayBea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one...
The name change to Arthur Sullivan did not occur until his marriage in London in 1919. He was John Sullivan in WWI fighting with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911 Census.

If something strange happened to him to make him change his name to Sullivan, it would have happened while in India or upon his return. He was seriously injured but I don't know if that would warrant a name change and a denial of being a Wilson after his retirement as a soldier.
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