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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > La Bruckman, Arbie

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  #11  
Old 05-12-2009, 01:04 PM
Mort Belfry Mort Belfry is offline
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So where does he belong on a list of suspects of decreasing credibility?

After James Kelly but before Dr Cohn?
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  #12  
Old 05-12-2009, 01:17 PM
babybird67 babybird67 is offline
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Default thanks Wolf and Mike

very informative!
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  #13  
Old 05-12-2009, 06:18 PM
robhouse robhouse is offline
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Dear Wolf,

I was at one time much interested in LaBruckman, after reading Conlon's dissertations, and I know you two have debated this aggressively to put it mildly. Did you ever write a dissertation on LaBruckman? I am just wondering what is the source for the "facts" you state in your post, such as for example, where you say LaBruckman was not Frenchy #2? What do you have to back this up? Or the part where you say LaBruckman was not cruel to animals?

Again, I am just asking for the source you base these claims on.

I do remember that Conlon determined that LaBruckman was a foreman drover and slaughterman for the National Line, and also that boats from this line were in London docks during all the Ripper crimes. At one point I was thinking of trying to track down the crew lists for these ships to see if LaBruckman was in London on the murder dates, but I never got around to it.

Most of the crew lists are apparently at the Maritime History Archive, Memorial University of Newfoundland, St John's Newfoundland, Canada. A small number are also at the National Maritime Museum, Maritime Information Centre, Romney Rd, London.

Conlon also wrote the following to me in an email:

"During the Nichols murder: there were two National Line ships in port in London - the 'Greece' and the 'Helvetia'. The National Line ship 'Italy' left the evening of the Aug. 30, probably before the murder. The 'Greece' left London for N.Y. shortly after the murder was discovered on the 31st.

During the Chapman muder: the National Line ships 'Egypt', "Denmark","Canada" and perhaps "Italy" and "Greece" were in London."

I think that for anyone interested in La Bruckman, or for that matter Ameer Ben Ali, a good place to start would be to track down the crew lists for the National line... you could start with the boats above.

Rob House
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  #14  
Old 05-12-2009, 08:29 PM
Wolf Vanderlinden Wolf Vanderlinden is offline
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Hi MB.

Quote:
So what is true about him?
He existed, he was questioned in connection with Carrie Brown then said he was arrested in connection with Jack the Ripper?
That’s about it. He had no relation to Carrie Brown or her murder or Ameer Ben Ali. He spent the night of the murder at Tommy Bennett’s lodging house at No.81 James street and this was fully corroborated by several people there. He did travel between New York and London on board cattleboats but on what dates he was in London is anybodies guess. It should be pointed out that when the New York World first broke the “Cattleman”
story it was reported in the press that several telegrams flew back and forth between the NYPD and London. Given the timing it is likely that these had something to do with La Bruckman but it is obvious that, since La Bruckman was so quickly dismissed as a suspect, London had no evidence against him or had evidence that disproved his supposed arrest.

Rob.

Although I plan to write an in depth article about La Bruckman as a suspect I can’t now say when this might be published, what with the fate of Ripper Notes being at this point unknown.

Quote:
I am just wondering what is the source for the "facts" you state in your post, such as for example, where you say LaBruckman was not Frenchy #2? What do you have to back this up? Or the part where you say LaBruckman was not cruel to animals?
This information comes from various New York City newspaper reports which covered the murder and subsequent investigation. These reports I found, much to my amazement, when I got a copy of the District Attorney’s Scrapbook; the same D A’s Scrapbook which Mr. Conlon used to write his articles. Information found there included interviews with several people who knew “Frenchy No.2,” who provided not only a description of the man but also his name, part of his history and where he lived as well as an interview with him. This man was not Arbie La Bruckman and he could not be confused with him.

Information about La Bruckman also comes from this source as well as other newspaper reports (of which I have probably the world’s largest collection dealing with the Brown murder) in which people who knew La Bruckman vouched for his name and reliability. The only evidence that La Bruckman was a sadist with the animals under his charge was from the anonymous letter – which contained errors tending to show that the writer didn’t know La Bruckman that well – which was sent to the World. No one who knew La Bruckman corroborated this, quite the opposite.

I also found that although La Bruckman sailed on the National Line he also sailed on other lines as well. This means that one would have to go through all the crew lists from ships who sailed into London from the New York area during the murders and to be able to recognize which alias La Bruckman was using since he appears to have used several of them. Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me since there is absolutely no evidence that Arbie La Bruckman had anything to do with the Carrie Brown murder let alone the Whitechapel Murders.

Wolf.
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  #15  
Old 05-12-2009, 09:33 PM
robhouse robhouse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Vanderlinden View Post
Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me since there is absolutely no evidence that Arbie La Bruckman had anything to do with the Carrie Brown murder let alone the Whitechapel Murders.
My thoughts on this, as with anything else related to research, is simply to uncover as many facts as possible. Despite your claim that Carrie Brown was not a Ripper victim, I could not either agree or disagree with your argument without actually seeing the coroners reports myself... and if La Bruckman was not Frenchy #2, then who was Frenchy #2? I believe Frenchy #2 was arrested, correct? Also, if I am not mistaken, Ameer Ben Ali was convicted of the murder of Carrie Brown although it was later overturned.

Again, my point is simply that the goal is to discover what actually happened with Carrie Brown, and with these other characters (La Bruckman, Ben Ali, Frenchy #1 and 2, etc). After all, someone must have killed her. I just dont like it when people choose not follow up potential leads after jumping to the conclusion that it is not worth it. I am not claiming that you are doing this, but again, since I have not seen your work, or the original documents, I would not venture to agree or disagree with your conclusions. The best thing, in my opinion, would be for someone to find and post the original documentation so that others can see them, and decide for themselves whether or not it is worth following up.

Rob H
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  #16  
Old 05-13-2009, 06:18 PM
Wolf Vanderlinden Wolf Vanderlinden is offline
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Hi Rob.

I wrote a lengthy article which was published in Ripper Notes # 16, 17 and 19. This was the most in depth article ever written on the Carrie Brown murder, but, as there’s so very little that has actually been published on the crime, that’s not saying a lot. In the last six years I have spent thousands of dollars on trips to places like New York and Salem Mass., and have put together the largest collection of Brown related material in the world, however. I may or may not write an article on La Bruckman but I am writing a book on the Brown murder. To a certain extent, therefore, I already know, and have already published, “what actually happened with Carrie Brown, and with these other characters (La Bruckman, Ben Ali, Frenchy #1 and 2, etc).”

So, what does all this mean? Well, for one thing I am without a doubt the authority on the Brown murder. I don’t say this egotistically but state it as a fact based on the vast amount of time spent and research I have done on the case. When I wrote “Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me since there is absolutely no evidence that Arbie La Bruckman had anything to do with the Carrie Brown murder let alone the Whitechapel Murders,” I did so based on my many years of researching the case so I hardly “jumped to conclusions” about La Bruckman. As I have posted, La Bruckman’s involvement in the case was minimal. He was briefly of interest to the police because the newspapers made him a suspect but was quickly cleared and released. His fantasy that he was put on trial for the Ripper murders is just that, a fantasy. Unfortunately, Michael Conlon made much more of La Bruckman than the evidence proves, or even provides. He was fitted into the mantle of Jack the Ripper like a square peg being pounded into a round hole.

Wolf.
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  #17  
Old 05-14-2009, 12:11 AM
robhouse robhouse is offline
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Well, I would be very interested to hear about your findings... I assume that you don't have any idea who actually did kill Carrie Brown? I think you should publish something anyways... I don't have the articles you mentioned, but from the sound of it, you have done more research since writing them.

RH
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2009, 10:46 PM
Wolf Vanderlinden Wolf Vanderlinden is offline
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Hi Rob.

If you are interested I can e-mail you copies of two of the articles (the second article, The New York Affair part 2, can be found here on the Casebook) if you want to leave me a private message with your e-mail address. Unfortunately, some of what I wrote several years ago has now been proved to be incorrect, especially the weight I attached to Michael Conlon's work at a time when I didn't have access to the sources he had.

Who might have killed Brown? I am now leaning towards the "Danish Farmhand," information about him can be found at http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=760

Wolf.
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  #19  
Old 05-15-2009, 02:08 AM
robhouse robhouse is offline
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Wolf,

I sent you my email in a private message. I have had the same problem... the articles I had published in Ripperologist have a lot of mistakes in them too.

Rob H
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  #20  
Old 01-31-2010, 05:40 PM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
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Just a thought:

LeGrand was jailed in late 1891. He was also jailed in 1889 for 18 months. I think at the time of Carrie Brown's death in April 1891, he was free.
That is the background or the foreshadowing to my thought.

Arbie LaBruckman was suspect of killing Carrie Brown initially, though how seriously, it is unknown. Could Arbie LaBruckman (Frenchy) have been LeGrand? I don't have the information of where LeGrand was in April, and I don't know who might, though I suspect Tom Wescott might know.

It's just somewhat coincidental (as are many things in the JTR world) that there was a victim with massive amounts of mutilation in Brown. She was a prostitute. Her lodging house or room for the night was also owned by a man of Irish Descent (Fitzgerald). There was a man with a foreign accent, nicknamed Frenchy that was at least in the general area and was considered to be a baaaad man like LeGrand. He also seems to have been in jail in 1889 in London, much like LeGrand, and his name is French and actually sounds totally made up.

There seems to have been no real corroboration of where he came from and really who he was. It doesn't even seem as if officials checked him out. It took reporters to do that.

If they are the same men, could LeGrand have been crossing the ocean to follow a lead? Or was he the murderer?

Maybe someone (Tom) who has more knowledge of LeGrand's movements can jump in.

Cheers,

Mike
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