When was Elizabeth Stride actually killed?

[pinkmoon]

Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?He would have known by giving a statement to the police he would come to the attention of journalists who could quite possibly offer some financial reward for his story.

[Observer]

I bet our good friend, Michael Richards is out buying a stopwatch and will be up all night compiling an Excel spreadsheet.

Just messin' with you, Michael.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Old Mike has already employed the use of an atomic clock to determine the exact timings of all witnesses involved in the Liz Stride case. I believe he has the TOD as 12:44 and 800,176,752,715 nanoseconds a.m. I don't reckon he's far out, I'd plump for a couple of nanoseconds either way.

Regards

Observer

[Fisherman]

Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?He would have known by giving a statement to the police he would come to the attention of journalists who could quite possibly offer some financial reward for his story.

I normally think that if Schwartz had made his story up, then why would he award himself the cowardīs role? This man fled from a place where a woman was subsequently murdered.
On that note, I also entertain the possibility that Schwartz swopped Pipemanīs pipe for a knife when he spoke to the Star, thus providing himself with a good reason for having fled.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Confess, infidel!

Hello PM.

"Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?"

Heretic. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

coward

Hello Christer. If Israel fled from one, he may be a coward, but with PM? Two?

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

T
Or both if Schwartz was the murderer? Given that his account is out of kilter with that of the other witnesses, and that he ran from the scene of one of the murders, I've often wondered why he seems never to have been under serious consideration as a suspect.

Hi BW
I was just thinking about that the other day. He didnt come forward voluntarily did he? Did the police ever check him out?

I guess the language thing could rule him out, unless he was lying about it.

[Observer]

Could Mr Schwartz have simply made this story up?

Hi Pinkmoon.

If so, he would I am sure be right at home here in Casebook Forums.

Observer

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. If Israel fled from one, he may be a coward, but with PM? Two?

Cheers.
LC

We are speaking of Victorian times here, Lynn - he would have made rather a flat figure either way. And I do think that suddenly appearing knife goes to show he knew.

Not that I am going to be able to prove it - itīs just how I read the whole thing.

The best,
Fisherman

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon.

If so, he would I am sure be right at home here in Casebook Forums.

Observer

Yes he would fit right in on here there are people on here who are armed with everything apart from the facts.

[moonbegger]

Because this is obviously repeated second hand, it seems like a garbled account of someone watching Diemschitz & Kozebrodski run across Fairclough St. Whoever saw this must have assumed one was chasing the other, in actual fact they were together.

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could."
Diemschitz.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
Kozebrodski.

Hello Wickerman ,

But it was also stated that the time was about quarter to one , well before Diemschitz got back ?

Also Diemschitz was a Member , we don't know about Kozebrodski , only that he was in the Club all evening , Although the fact he was arrested along wit Diemschitz during a disturbance at the club a few months later after a meeting would suggest he was also a member .

The chasing man however , was not a member of their body .

It does sound like ( as Fisherman alluded ) corroboration for Schwartz's story ..

Moonbegger .

[Fisherman]

Hello Wickerman ,

But it was also stated that the time was about quarter to one , well before Diemschitz got back ?

Also Diemschitz was a Member , we don't know about Kozebrodski , only that he was in the Club all evening , Although the fact he was arrested along wit Diemschitz during a disturbance at the club a few months later after a meeting would suggest he was also a member .

The chasing man however , was not a member of their body .

It does sound like ( as Fisherman alluded ) corroboration for Schwartz's story ..

Moonbegger .

Kozebrodski was listed as a member according to the Morning Advertiser, I believe.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Yep, here it is:

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,.." Morning Advertiser, 1 Oct.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

O tempora . . .

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"We are speaking of Victorian times here, Lynn. . ."

Ah, I was wondering about that.

"And I do think that suddenly appearing knife goes to show he knew."

Or that the Star bloke knew how to conduct a colourful interview.

"Not that I am going to be able to prove it - itīs just how I read the whole thing."

Line forms to the right. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

The problem here is that we are dealing with estimates both in terms of the witnesses and time of death. Therefore it is impossible to rule out a scenario that has Liz's killer arriving after the B.S. man left the scene which is what I think happened. Yes, it is cutting it close (no pun intended) but still within the realm of possibility.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

But the secretary of the club, remember, claimed that the chasing man was not a member of the club.
If you are correct, then botch the chaser and the chased man WERE club members. Why did the secretary fail to recognize one man and falsely claim that the other was not a club member?

And would he not hear Diemschitz yelling for the police?

It does not pan out, does it?

The best, Jon!
Fisherman

Christer.
The Secretary is retelling a story he has received, not that he was a witness to this.
I believe he is saying that he cannot remember the name he was given, by whoever told him this. And, it was the opinion of whomever, that one of the men was not a club member, not the Secretaries opinion.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong...

***
Edit:
My take here, the Secretary did not witness this, he is retelling a story given him by a Mr. X.

Are we to understand that after Mr X told him this, the Secretary (Wess?) then looked through his club members list (why?), and after not being able to find the mans name, he forgets the name?
Is that likely?

Conversely, Mr X tells the secretary the story and Mr X then says, "I think the chaser was xxxxx, but he is not a member of the club".
It isn't Wess who is saying the man was not a member of the club, it is Mr X.
For Mr X to know this, surely Mr X must be a club member?