Throat-slitting and Stride

[Phil H]

I think what was shouted was "Lizzie!" (The word was misheard.)

Edited to add: IT may have been the man who didn't want Liz in the Club with him. If he was married for instance. Less questions.

I'm not trying to persuade you, Wickerman - how could I dare! I'm just stating what works for me - at least better than the usual confused twaddle of the night.

Phil

[Observer]

More confused twaddle

For any of you who believe that Liz was on a date, would you care to speculate where her date was when she was killed. If you believe she was killed by her date that's fine, but if not, where was he?

I have suggested these options many times before:

a) he was pipe-smoking man (as seen by Schwartz) - either told by Stride to stand aside while she dealt with Kidney; or distancing himself from an unpleasant incident; or

b) he was in the Club and Stride was patiently waiting for him.

Just two ideas, but not, I think, impossible, unlikely or unreasonable.

Phil

You see, another example of flawed logic on display here.

Earlier in this thread ( in exchanges between yourself and I) you maintained that Liz Stride was in the company of one man and one man only on the night of her murder. The man in question you maintain was a date.

Now lets have a look at some dyed in the wool facts. Lets suppose that you are indeed correct in assuming that Liz Stride was in the company of only one man on the night of her death. All the witnesses Best, Gardener, Marshall, Brown, described the man's height as 5 feet 6inches, 5 feet 7 inches. Pipeman was described as being approx 5 feet 11 inches in height.

How can you consider Pipeman as being Liz Stride's date for the night when he was 5 or 6 inches taller than the man as seen by the other witnesses?

[Phil H]

I am not sure of - and you'll find I have rarely if ever used - Schwartz testimony. I don't think he understood what he saw (if anything) and may have been mistranslated.

My point here is, not that Pipeman WAS Stride's date, but if Schwartz is to believed, Pipeman might have been that. I put no weight on his judgement of height at all.

For a man with a soubriquet of observer you (if I may say so) don't seem very observant. Judging height is really quite difficult - so as I have said previously - all such references to height must, IMHO, be regarded as subjective.

One thing I'll give you. Liz doesn't appear to have been out with Joe Flemming that night.

Phil

[The Good Michael]

My point here is, not that Pipeman WAS Stride's date, but if Schwartz is to believed, Pipeman might have been that. I put no weight on his judgement of height at all.

Phil,

If Schwartz' statement had even a grain of truth, surely he could judge one man (pipeman) as being taller than another. 5'11" could easily be off an inch or two, but unless he was lying, the comparison between the two men must be valid in that one was quite a bit taller than the other.


Mike

[Phil H]

So you say - and may your interpretation bring you much joy and gladness.

Doesn't work for me, sorry. I'll stick to my interpretation.

But you see, I am not seeking to assert any truth here - just using a different lens to look at Stride's murder. You may well be right, she was out with various men - though I think not. She may have been soliciting - but to me probably not that night. The more I look at this killing from verious angles, the less like Jack's work it seems (to me).

Edited to add: In my view, in our current state of knowledge of the case, it is probably best not to be too absolutist about anything. Hence my matrix of possibilities.

Phil

[The Good Michael]

So you say - and may your interpretation bring you much joy and gladness.
l

Was that in response to me?

Mike

[Observer]

I am not sure of - and you'll find I have rarely if ever used - Schwartz testimony. I don't think he understood what he saw (if anything) and may have been mistranslated.

Then why cite Pipeman as a candidate for Liz Strie's date?

My point here is, not that Pipeman WAS Stride's date, but if Schwartz is to believed, Pipeman might have been that. I put no weight on his judgement of height at all.

Oh I see. You put no weight on his judgement of height. Well you would say that wouldn't you. It kicks your assumption that he may have possibly been Liz Stride's date into touch does it not?

For a man with a soubriquet of observer you (if I may say so) don't seem very observant. Judging height is really quite difficult - so as I have said previously - all such references to height must, IMHO, be regarded as subjective..

Well, obviously more observant than you. There's no way I would have considered Pipeman as Liz Stride's sole date for the night. Not when other witnesses are on record as stating that the man they saw with Liz Stride was 5 inches shorter than Pipeman.

It's all very well "thinking outside the box", and constructing a matrix of possibilities. The point is it helps to adhere as near as possible to the know facts.

[Aethelwulf]

what are thoughts on the coram knife? sounds like an unlikely weapon to me and the timings seem a bit out? But also intrigued by what sounds like a badly neglected horse falling down in the area around the time discovered.