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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #41  
Old 05-08-2016, 02:27 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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I actually wonder what the purpose of the thread is?
The original post seems to be very obscure. And indeed when asked if certain items could be included the poster replied they did not know.
It reminds me of a fishing expedition, an activety aimed at gaining information but with no specific objectives in mind.


Steve
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  #42  
Old 05-08-2016, 02:36 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I actually wonder what the purpose of the thread is?
The original post seems to be very obscure. And indeed when asked if certain items could be included the poster replied they did not know.
It reminds me of a fishing expedition, an activety aimed at gaining information but with no specific objectives in mind.


Steve
Hi Steve,

Yes, I sense Pierre may be regretting starting this thread, which could explain why he's elected not to respond to Post 23.
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  #43  
Old 05-08-2016, 12:43 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi Robert,

If there was a serial killer who murdered at least five women in 1888 some people think there was a motive, and not just any motive but a specific motive, and their reason for thinking so is that people in 1888 thought there was a specific motive. So the motive is a tradition from 1888 and people believe in that motive. For example, he must have been a homicidal lunatic - this motive is at the same time functioning as the explanation for the murders.

If people, on the other hand, know nothing about the ideas of motives and explanations from 1888 and know nothing about serial killer motives today, and people start to examine the historical sources from 1888, they may find a motive or motives that were not known and therefore unexpected. If that motive or those motives can be connected to the MO, signature and victimology of the murders in 1888, it can also be connected to the identity of the murderer.

So that is two differents ways of doing research on the case.

Kind regards, Pierre
Mayerling is right, Pierre. There were potentially as many similar motives considered during 1888 as there are considered now. Altho i can ratiolalize the influence of different era, i believe that there are some universals, and character and personality are amongst them. So if an alternative (ie. fresh) perspective is what you actively seek, you may have to consider the opinions of alternative personalities and characters rather than the status quo. Iow, for example, how would a serial killer interpret Jack the Ripper? My current defaulted profile is the one offered by a Victorian criminal who suspected ,,the old fake,,.

{Are you considering that Jack the Ripper saw himself from a historical perspective, and was setting the model for all the 20th Century serial killers who ,,copycatted,, him? A homicidal savant...}

Is homicidal lunacy a motive? Or, a condition that poses an immediate threat to society at large.

Are these ,,greetings,, incidental or conspired? Incidental could be his employment of the color ,red, - cigarette case, kerchief, the ,,dear boss,, ink. And if he is ,venting, who is his audience? Surely it would have been someone from that era.

I,ve been curious lately... are you suspecting wynn baxter or the coroner,s department?
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  #44  
Old 05-08-2016, 12:58 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayerling View Post
Which if we take to a logical conclusion, people in 1888 could ascribe that the five killings are by an individual who is a homicidal lunatic, but (for some reason that only Pierre comprehends), in 2016 we no longer believe in homicidal lunacy at all. So we can shelve that theory of the cause of the murder as useless.

You've got to be kidding.

Jeff
Hi Jeff,

The problem is the deduction by using an ideal type: "The Lunatic".

It was given explanatory value in 1888 and still is given such a value.

But it says nothing about the ID of the person who is called a lunatic.

Therefore the ideal type hides the ID.

Regards, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 05-08-2016 at 01:01 PM.
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  #45  
Old 05-08-2016, 01:04 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I actually wonder what the purpose of the thread is?
The original post seems to be very obscure. And indeed when asked if certain items could be included the poster replied they did not know.
It reminds me of a fishing expedition, an activety aimed at gaining information but with no specific objectives in mind.

Steve
Yes, Steve. I donīt know. Why shouldnīt I be honest?

Regards, Pierre
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  #46  
Old 05-08-2016, 01:06 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=John G;379636][quote=Pierre;379620]
Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post

Hello Pierre,

Yes, I agree killers may attempt to communicate in written form-such as to the police or newspapers-but at the start of this thread you were emphatic that such source material is not valid. And where's the evidence the killer communicated to the authorities, or newspapers, in verbal form?
Hi John,

You misunderstand me. I do not say that written communication does not count. I just say that there can be other types of communications as well. It doesnīt have t be written.

Regards, Pierre
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  #47  
Old 05-08-2016, 01:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=Robert St Devil;380013]

Quote:
Are these ,,greetings,, incidental or conspired?
They are hypothetical. You go through the material and find communications. Or you go through the material without finding communications.

The number and quality, if you find them, is a specific problem. Your interpretations of them is another problem. The reliability and validity of the sources another problem. And so on and so forth.

But without this hypothesis we will never look for communication. And if we donīt, we might ignore the past.

Quote:
Incidental could be his employment of the color ,red, - cigarette case, kerchief, the ,,dear boss,, ink. And if he is ,venting, who is his audience? Surely it would have been someone from that era.
Yes, indeed. Who is his audience? That is a very important question. We are not the audience. So we are deaf and blind. That makes it very hard for us to understand the sources, doesnīt it? Especially if we are biased by other peoples deafness and blindness, people from 1888 or even after that time.

Quote:
I,ve been curious lately... are you suspecting wynn baxter or the coroner,s department?
I know almost nothing about Wynn Baxter actually. The answer is no.

Kind regards, Pierre
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  #48  
Old 05-08-2016, 01:22 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I actually wonder what the purpose of the thread is?
The original post seems to be very obscure. And indeed when asked if certain items could be included the poster replied they did not know.
It reminds me of a fishing expedition, an activety aimed at gaining information but with no specific objectives in mind.


Steve
Hi Steve,

The purpose is to discuss two possible choices: to hypothesize that the killer was communicating or not to do so - and to discuss the consequences of the two different hypotheses.

Kind regards, Pierre
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  #49  
Old 05-08-2016, 01:23 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi Jeff,

The problem is the deduction by using an ideal type: "The Lunatic".

It was given explanatory value in 1888 and still is given such a value.

But it says nothing about the ID of the person who is called a lunatic.

Therefore the ideal type hides the ID.

Regards, Pierre
Hi Pierre,

I hardly think that anybody who is described as "The Lunatic" is considered an "ideal type". I don't even consider if Plato would have seen it as an "ideal", since he imagined perfection in form and function, and to be a lunatic is to be damaged in some way mentally.

It certainly was not the definitive clue in determining the Ripper's personal ID in 1888 or 2016, although I notice that mentally ill or mentally questionable characters (even when we reject them) like Osrog, Kosminski, Francis Thompson, Cutbush, possibly Druitt, have been named over the years as though their mental conditions fit in with whoever stabbed five women, or mutilated four, and in one particularly gruesome situation reduced a woman's body into the equivalent of a butcher shop. I have on occasion tried to consider the expanded role of the growing mutilations as a key to some plan - possibly to hide a special mutilation in Mary Kelly's demise. But the brain that concocted that plan, even if it was "normal" on a day-to-day routine, was a lunatic on those five occasions, and I would say a super-lunatic on the one on Nov. 8-9, 1888. And no airy decision to concentrate on the ID and dismiss the use of "lunatic" as unimportant makes any sense whatsoever.

Regards,

Pierre
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  #50  
Old 05-08-2016, 01:29 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi All,

Why do I get the overwhelming feeling that this thread is about to disappear up its own fundamental orifice?

Regards,

Simon
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