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  #11  
Old 06-19-2013, 01:25 PM
Ally Ally is offline
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I realize this is to Phil, but I felt compelled to respond anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

The actions of Mark Ripper and the lengths he has gone to clearly show an agenda. That being to discredit me. After all the book had been out since 2008.
The book was re-published in 2013. Which means it's subject to review just like any book published. I imagine he did have an agenda. It's called book review and investigative journalism.

Quote:
By his own admissions he sits in a theatre hastily writing down everything I say during my 2 hour talk and uses it in the article. What has my talk got to do with the book issue? He passes adverse comments and criticisms about almost every part of the talk. But that is to be expected from one who want to prop up the old outdated theories and that doesn't bother me now.
You seem to be under a misapprehension that what you do or say has no bearing on anything. You are putting yourself out there as a researcher and publishing in the field of non-fiction. That means you need credibility and integrity that is not required of a fiction writer. Your work stands or falls on your own credibility. It is not outside the bounds to investigate the man, otherwise, you wouldn't be trying so hard to discredit Mark. I mean, why would you be trying so hard to paint him as a person with an agenda if you didn't thoroughly recognize that a person's integrity and credibility were central to how well their work is received.

You seem to understand that in regard to others but fail to see how it applies to you.

Quote:
So why 5 years later does he go on a mission which took months and no doubt he spent a lot of his own money. No one does that as a exercise without a motive and an objective. Certainly not just to prove someone used someone elses words in a book.
Yes indeed, because plagiarism isn't a serious issue in academia. You attempt to minimize it with statements like "used someone elses words in a book". That's called plagiarism. It's a serious charge and a serious offense in the world of academia. It's actionable. It's not some reduced little thing of no consequence. People have lost their jobs and their entire careers for less "borrowing" than has been demonstrated in one chapter of your book. It's not a little thing to people who take research and academia seriously. It's not a little thing to the people who didn't get paid a book advance for their work which you used.

Quote:
The man is sad he needs to take a look at himself and his life and I will tell him so face to face if we ever meet.
Mark is a gentleman and a scholar. Tearing him down to discredit him is not the way to go on this. Attempting to paint him as a member of some cabal is not the way to go on this. There are many, many people I would say you had a fair beef about if they had been the ones to write this. There are many people I would say, well yes, they DID have an agenda (though that's still irrelevant as I have said before, what matters is did they find anything verifiable). Mark is not one of those people. Do I think there are people all over dancing a jig and doing a "Let's buy him a beer" routine? Absolutely.

Is that at all relevant to what's being discussed? No.
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Last edited by Ally : 06-19-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-19-2013, 01:36 PM
Supe Supe is offline
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Trev,

Like I said maybe I was na´eve with regards to copyright issues way back in 2008.

You confuse the issue by harping on the copyright business and how you didn't understand the law (and, as a former policeman, you do know ignorance of the law is no excuse). By taking large pieces of prose from other writers and using it verbatim -- without attribution or compensation -- you committed plagiarism and that is clearly unethical behavior that is inexcusable. And the fact that you did not put the stolen words in quotation marks indicates that you did wish to pass them off as your own.

For shame!

Don.
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  #13  
Old 06-19-2013, 02:00 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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I stand by the point I made in my previous post, Trevor - answer the allegations point by point.

Go for the ball, not the man.

I think the article would have stood and been as strong without the piece about your talk, but it was not irrelevant - far from it. Read it again and try to see the point being made. Everyone seems to be culpable but you?

I fully support the points being made by Ally and Don which I could not have expressed better.

Phil
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  #14  
Old 06-19-2013, 03:24 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil H View Post
I stand by the point I made in my previous post, Trevor - answer the allegations point by point.

Go for the ball, not the man.

I think the article would have stood and been as strong without the piece about your talk, but it was not irrelevant - far from it. Read it again and try to see the point being made. Everyone seems to be culpable but you?

I fully support the points being made by Ally and Don which I could not have expressed better.

Phil
Phil

I have set out and given my explanation's etc. Those were given to Mark Ripper when he contacted me. I can add no more on here or anywhere else for that matter.

In the past 24 hours I have answered all that has been put before me I have nothing further to say on the topic. I do not intend to be subjected to a public inquisition by those who would seek to discredit me like Mark Ripper has done.

As far as I am concerned the matter is closed.
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  #15  
Old 06-19-2013, 03:28 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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Alas, Trevor, I doubt whether it is as easy as that.

Phil
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  #16  
Old 06-19-2013, 05:02 PM
Ally Ally is offline
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Apparently Phil, it is as easy as that. Apparently professional integrity, intellectual property and standards have no place in Ripperology.

This is the same group of folks who will split a photo down the middle to keep others from copying their work, horde their knowledge and pitch a fit whenever there is even the suggestion that someone didn't properly credit or attribute their work, pitch a fit because someone found and posted the same article from 1888 they'd been hanging on to for three years without publishing, but if it's someone else's work being blatantly misused, it's just a case of "using too many secondary sources".

Dumbfounded.

P.S I am not saying all Ripperologists are of that sort, I am just absolutely dumbfounded that anyone, ANYONE, much less someone involved in researching and publishing would ever shrug off intellectual property theft.
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Last edited by Ally : 06-19-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-19-2013, 05:17 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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...who will split a photo down the middle to keep others from copying their work

Given the risks of plagiarism... which is what you are discussing - surely that is a good idea?

Philip Hutchinson did it with the 1909 picture of Dutfields Yard in his book and I thought it an excellent idea. Had he not done so, I am sure his copyright would have been breached by now - and he had put a lot of effort into obtaining and verifying that photo.

Maybe I am missing your point.

Phil
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  #18  
Old 06-19-2013, 05:18 PM
Ally Ally is offline
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I am saying simply that Ripperologists as a group are fanatical about protecting their OWN copyright or claim but seem to be shrugging off the breach of other peoples. That was all that paragraph was intended to do.
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  #19  
Old 06-19-2013, 06:41 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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I do not see how it is being 'shrugged off' Ally,

Marks piece is pretty clear, and he has laid it out for all to decide. So what is expected now?

Monty
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  #20  
Old 06-19-2013, 06:47 PM
Ally Ally is offline
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This is true. I am referring to a small group and so should not generalize. That is bad on my part and I recognize that. But I find it galling that Mark's character is being attacked, and somehow there is an implication that this was not an investigation worth doing, especially by someone who has in the past pitched a fit over someone else finding the same article from 100 years ago and publishing it when they thought they had priority.

If people have nothing to say that is fine. Sometimes silence is the best option. I just am appalled that anyone would think to question Mark's integrity over this, or contend that it's not a big deal. I imagine, to the people who didn't receive Marriott's advance, but did a large part of the work, it is a very big deal indeed.
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