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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Barnett, Joseph

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  #11  
Old 07-12-2012, 11:11 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Richard. Thanks. I, too, think the event may not have taken so long as many imagine.

"We should not forget our Jack worked very rapid, and he hardly hung around at Mitre square on the 30TH?"

Of course, this assumes that both assassins were the same.

Cheers.
LC
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  #12  
Old 07-12-2012, 11:47 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Lynn,
That is the 64 thousand dollar question...
The way I see it is, if the killer was the same, then I ask myself a question?
Why did he change his MO?
He killed indoors..
Was it because he was worried about getting caught in the act , because of the extra police, and public awareness, or was it because he had accosted Kelly in daylight,and could not commit his normal habit, of darkness, and escape patterns?
To kill in a room , with only one escape route, without knowing if he would be disturbed, was far worse then Hanbury street, where the fences would allow an alternative, from it's passage way.
If Kelly was not killed by the Ripper, and was indeed a cunning copycat, again I must ask myself a question?
What reason to copy the murderers mutilation methods.
If killed by a client out of disagreement, why not a normal kill, strangle,or cut throat. why go the Ripper way.
The answer I get, is the Mary's killer was not intending to kill her , but once the act was done, and possibly being someone very close to the victim, rather then be a suspect by the police, he went Ripper fashion.
I get the impression that her killer was used to Millers court, and its habits, and that room was not alien to him.
So if this murder was not the same as Eddowes , that is one explanation.
However lets go the obvious way, she was killed by Jack, and later then it is normally considered,
Regards Richard.
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  #13  
Old 07-12-2012, 11:56 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi Mike,
If nothing else this thread may get people asking .
''How long would the millers court murder take''?
Rather then attempt to do a Sam Flynn [ which was excellent] how about taking Maurice Lewis's word for it, and have the murder take place shortly after 10am.
It would then mean around 30 minutes, about 6x longer then Eddowes,
I would say that's about right.
Regards Richard.
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  #14  
Old 07-12-2012, 12:15 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Richard. Thanks. If MJK was a copycat, someone was a POOR copyist.

"possibly being someone very close to the victim, rather than be a suspect by the police, he went Ripper fashion."

I can live with this. A former lover--especially one who later felt betrayed--would fit the bill. That is why I cannot take Fleming off the table.

Cheers.
LC
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2012, 12:22 PM
Heinrich Heinrich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Hello Heinrich. Thanks.

Here is the link, post #2. Give it a go!

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3775
I am not an expert in maniacal butchery, Lynn, but only 16 minutes to do all the damage subjected by Mary Kelly lacks face validity.

The thread is, I regret to state, yet another red herring because the claim of Maurice Lewis to have seen Mary Kelly the night of the murder in a pub and then again seeing her minutes before her mutilated body was discovered smacks of idle yarn-spinning. More to the point, there is no corroboration of Lewis' fanciful accounts.
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  #16  
Old 07-12-2012, 12:29 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Heinrich. Thanks. All I can say is that Gareth was one of our finest ripper students. He most likely checked these times with medical people. (What is face validity?)

I agree about Lewis' story; however, there were no fewer than 3 stories agreeing that MJK was alive after sunup. Make of that what you will.

Cheers.
LC
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  #17  
Old 07-12-2012, 01:47 PM
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caz caz is offline
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He 'went Ripper fashion' with the first sweep of his fit-and-sharpened-for-the-purpose knife.

No bashing on the head, no knifeless throttling, no pillow over the face - he did this like he was prepared for everyone to connect the deed to the previous Whitechapel unfortunate throat cuttings.

The ripper himself was not concerned with doing a fair copy of what he'd done before. There was a POOR copyist at every turn for those who were expecting the same indignities and injuries to be inflicted on victims of the same hand.

But even the poorest copyist would have known to take a kidney with him, if not the uterus, and if Stride was considered one of the series, he had no need to venture much beyond the trademark throat cutting. Doing it indoors was a departure, and a risky one for any of Mary's closer associates to choose. A quick slash here and there before scarpering would have sufficed for anyone but the ripper. But this inside job was a truly golden opportunity for him alone to paint the town red for Lord Mayor's Day.

Has any other serial killer in history been upstaged like this by a poor pretender?

And yeah, I know what's coming, so spare us. ["What serial killer?" ]

Love,

Caz
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  #18  
Old 07-12-2012, 02:52 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Caroline. I shall indeed spare you. But . . .

"no knifeless throttling, . . . he did this like he was prepared for everyone to connect the deed to the previous Whitechapel unfortunate throat cuttings."

But Polly and Annie were both, beyond doubt, throttled first. The others MAY have been, but the overt marks are lacking. If one really wanted to show continuity, one would need to strangle first and leave bruises. So IF a copy, THEN a poor one.

Cheers.
LC
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  #19  
Old 07-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Sally Sally is offline
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Estimates as to how long it took to complete to the satisfaction of the killer the butchery (butcher or not) of Kelly are moot, I think,

Because there is no way of knowing whether how long it could have taken is how long it did take, or even close to it.

Yes, ok, the Ripper worked quickly - so doubtless he could. But did he want to when it came to Kelly? Did he have to? Perhaps not.

Perhaps that was the point of killing inside a private space - different risk (not sure whether greater, necessarily) but a great payoff in terms of time. He had the time in that room. I'd expect him to use it to fulfil his fantasies - and it looks as though that's what he did.
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  #20  
Old 07-12-2012, 03:20 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Sally. I would not say "moot." Frequently, the time factor has been offered to justify ruling out a morning murder. Gareth's work shows that one cannot rule that out on the basis of time of mutilation alone.

Fantasies? What fantasies would these be then?

Cheers.
LC
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