Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[Patrick S]

I'm with you there, Patrick. Two weapons seems rather too complicated, cumbersome and frankly unnecessary. After stabbing the body 38 times with one weapon, why should he not have gone equally haywire with the other, instead of contenting himself with a solitary blow to the chest?

That's my feeling exactly. I can envision a scenario in which the killer attempts to strangle Tabram, rendering her - to use a favorite term - "insensible" but perhaps not dead. She's down, not at her best, but he senses a scream might be forthcoming. He doesn't need that. He wants her dead, obviously. So, with her on the ground, he produces the knife and plunges it through the sternum, and into the heart. And. She's dead. Unfortunately for him the knife is stuck. Through substantial effort he frees the blade. And that takes time. Having just killed this woman, perhaps the first time he's done so successfully, he's very aware of time, fearful of being observed, etc. Now he's some combination of angry and excited and, 38 frenzied stab wounds later, he's out of there.

[Patrick S]

Wasn't Klosowski living in the George Yard buildings at the time of the murders?

I don't have that information. I'm interested to know if that's true, though! I recall that he worked (owned?) at a barbershop at the corner of Whitechapel Rd. and George Yard at one point, but that was - if memory serves - a few years after the murders.

[Harry D]

I don't have that information. I'm interested to know if that's true, though! I recall that he worked (owned?) at a barbershop at the corner of Whitechapel Rd. and George Yard at one point, but that was - if memory serves - a few years after the murders.

On second thoughts, he was probably living at 126 Cable Street during the murders.

[Sam Flynn]

Wasn't Klosowski living in the George Yard buildings at the time of the murders?

Not until 1890, Harry.

To be precise, he never lived in George Yard Buildings, but was the proprietor of a barber's shop in the basement of the White Hart pub, which backed onto George Yard.

(I've just noticed you'd answered your own question, sorry!)

[Sam Flynn]

On second thoughts, he was probably living at 126 Cable Street during the murders.

In all probabiliity, Harry.

[YomRippur]

She is definitely the most likely non-canonical victim. The type of victim, the proximity in location, the proximity to the date of the Nichols murder, the relative rarity of murders back then, the ferocity of the attack (albeit in different MO), and the fact that this murder fits into the progression of a fledgling killer, all make her a likely victim.

As all her knife wounds were inflicted while she was alive, I wonder what the killer did to prevent her from screaming. I wonder if that lone pen-knife attack had something to do with that.

[Sam Flynn]

She is definitely the most likely non-canonical victim.

I'd agree there. Although I don't think Tabram was one of the Ripper's victims, to my mind she's a more likely one than Stride.

[Scott Nelson]

But Stride was murdered next to the residence Kosminski used to inhabit.

[Sam Flynn]

But Stride was murdered next to the residence Kosminski used to inhabit.

Don't forget Tumblety and Klosowski, albeit the latter didn't live in nearby Greenfield Street/Road until later (mind you, Cable Street was only just around the corner). Also, Stride and Michael Kidney had lived together at 36 Devonshire Street, a short walk away from Berner Street, and where Michael Kidney still lived in 1889.

[curious]

Don't forget Tumblety and Klosowski, albeit the latter didn't live in nearby Greenfield Street/Road until later (mind you, Cable Street was only just around the corner). Also, Stride and Michael Kidney had lived together at 36 Devonshire Street, a short walk away from Berner Street, and where Michael Kidney still lived in 1889.

Do you remember who wrote the dissertation exonerating Michael Kidney of Stride's murder? Was it Supe?

I'd like to go back and re-read it.

[DJA]

Don't forget Tumblety and Klosowski, albeit the latter didn't live in nearby Greenfield Street/Road until later (mind you, Cable Street was only just around the corner). Also, Stride and Michael Kidney had lived together at 36 Devonshire Street, a short walk away from Berner Street, and where Michael Kidney still lived in 1889.

Kidney was at 12 Thrawl Street in 1889.

Michael Kidney said: I live at No. 38, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, and am a waterside labourer. I have seen the body of the deceased at the mortuary.
The Coroner: Is it the woman you have been living with? - Yes.
[Coroner] You have no doubt about it? - No doubt whatever.
[Coroner] What was her name? - Elizabeth Stride.
[Coroner] How long have you known her? - About three years.
[Coroner] How long has she been living with you? - Nearly all that time.
[Coroner] What was her age? - Between thirty-six and thirty-eight years.
[Coroner] Was she a Swede? - She told me that she was a Swede, and I have no doubt she was. She said she was born three miles from Stockholm, that her father was a farmer, and that she first came to England for the purpose of seeing the country; but I have grave doubts about that. She afterwards told me that she came to England in a situation with a family.
[Coroner] Had she got any relatives in England? - When I met her she told me she was a widow, and that her husband had been a ship's carpenter at Sheerness.
[Coroner] Did he ever keep a coffee-house? - She told me that he had.
[Coroner] Where? - In Chrisp-street, Poplar.

[DJA]

Tom Wescott.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/exonerating-kidney.html

[curious]

Tom Wescott.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...ng-kidney.html

Thanks!

[Jon Guy]

. After stabbing the body 38 times with one weapon, why should he not have gone equally haywire with the other, instead of contenting himself with a solitary blow to the chest?

Because she wasn`t dead, Sam.

You agree that Martha could have still been alive after the 38 stabs with the pen knife?

Then we have the long bladed knife wound to the heart, killing her.

[Sam Flynn]

Kidney was at 12 Thrawl Street in 1889.

Tom Wescott.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...ng-kidney.html

He might have taken up lodgings in Thrawl Street in 1888, but that doesn't contradict what I said, namely that Kidney was still resident in Devonshire Street in 1889. As Tom's article says:

"In June of 1889, Kidney was still living at 36 Devonshire Street, the last address he had shared with Liz."

There was evidently an association between Michael Kidney and that location, which was a very short walk away from Berner Street itself.