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  #4821  
Old 05-11-2018, 06:00 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Interesting to see that not only was he intimidated by the police into giving the Liverpool alibi but the Daily Mirror too.
Lol, another inconvenient fact overlooked by those fearless investigators Foot and Woffinden.
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  #4822  
Old 05-11-2018, 06:09 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Interesting to see that not only was he intimidated by the police into giving the Liverpool alibi but the Daily Mirror too.
He didn't have to give anyone details of an alibi when he phoned the Mirror. He was not in custody and was free to check how sustainable his 'real' alibi (i.e. the Rhyl one) was before giving details of his false Liverpool three friends alibi. That he chose to lie at this time obviously points to his guilt and lack of a genuine alibi.
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  #4823  
Old 05-11-2018, 06:44 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
He didn't have to give anyone details of an alibi when he phoned the Mirror. He was not in custody and was free to check how sustainable his 'real' alibi (i.e. the Rhyl one) was before giving details of his false Liverpool three friends alibi. That he chose to lie at this time obviously points to his guilt and lack of a genuine alibi.
Are you sure of this? I've always considered that JH thought his Liverpool Alibi the 'real' one, and which he thought he could prove if needs be; it was only when Sherrard advised him that the judge could order him to be taken to Liverpool to identify on-the-spot the flat where he claimed his friends lived that he panicked and introduced his new alibi. That he knew people in Liverpool is not in dispute. I feel that the Rhyl Alibi was a knee-jerk in response to what he was now beginning to see was a hopeless situation. He had been to Rhyl before (in July) and could prove it, so he at least could introduce what he saw as verisimilitude into this alibi, based upon what he saw and did during his earlier visit.

Graham
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  #4824  
Old 05-11-2018, 08:16 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Are you sure of this? I've always considered that JH thought his Liverpool Alibi the 'real' one, and which he thought he could prove if needs be; it was only when Sherrard advised him that the judge could order him to be taken to Liverpool to identify on-the-spot the flat where he claimed his friends lived that he panicked and introduced his new alibi. That he knew people in Liverpool is not in dispute. I feel that the Rhyl Alibi was a knee-jerk in response to what he was now beginning to see was a hopeless situation. He had been to Rhyl before (in July) and could prove it, so he at least could introduce what he saw as verisimilitude into this alibi, based upon what he saw and did during his earlier visit.

Graham
Hanratty could well have thought that the Liverpool alibi was the best he could do in the circumstances, however most of the Hanratty-didn'tdoities subscribe to the Rhyl alibi, with Mrs Jones, Ingledene etc. so for that reason I describe it as the 'real' alibi. In fact, it is as false as the one it replaced.

Last edited by Spitfire : 05-11-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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  #4825  
Old 05-11-2018, 08:51 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Hanratty could well have thought that the Liverpool alibi was the best he could do in the circumstances, however most of the Hanratty-didn'tdoities subscribe to the Rhyl alibi, with Mrs Jones, Ingledene etc. so for that reason I describe it as the 'real' alibi. In fact, it is as false as the one it replaced.
JH included a lot of minor details in his Liverpool Alibi, such as describing the cufflinks of the posh bloke on the train, and the 'little girl' in the sweet shop, and the pair of 'right cockneys' on his return train. Chances were that he'd been down the Scotland Road on an earlier occasion, and could remember some details. One other small point that the Hanrattyistas tend to overlook is that he claimed to have gone to the wrong station after leaving The Vienna, and then went to Euston, the correct station for Liverpool. The 'wrong station' just happened to be the one from which trains to Slough and the West left.

The Rhyl Alibi conks out in several areas, not the least being the confusion over what time he actually arrived in Rhyl, when checked against the times of the buses from Liverpool, and if it was dark or still light when he arrived. His attempt at describing where he stayed is shaky, and don't forget that it was Gillbanks who 'identified' Ingledene, rather than Hanratty. And it was a stroke of 'luck' that Mrs Jones claimed to recognise the man in the one and only photo Gillbanks showed her. Yes, he did get one or two things correct, like the sound of the trains, but he fell down big time in most other details.

Graham
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  #4826  
Old 05-12-2018, 01:13 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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On the afternoon of the 26 September, Acott and Oxford visited JH's parents to tell them that their son was wanted for car theft
I have always wondered why they said that. But if Jim abandoned the rental car without informing Ryans they would have regarded it as theft, and 'overdue return' may have been the gist of their letter to Wood Lane.

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And it was a stroke of 'luck' that Mrs Jones claimed to recognise the man
An appropriate word to describe Mrs Jones is ‘suggestible’.
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  #4827  
Old 05-12-2018, 01:24 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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I didn't know until you (or was it Spitfire?) posted the Daily Mirror piece that the damaged hire-car had been abandoned near Dublin Airport. I therefore have to assume that Woffinden and Foot didn't wish their readership to form the opinion that their darling boy was an irresponsible miscreant. Whether any previous A6 authors mentioned this, I wouldn't know, as it's years since I read any book other than by the above two writers, and Leonard Miller. Of course, to Woffinden, Hanratty was the 'gentle fugitive'.

Acott obviously confirmed to Mr and Mrs Hanratty that their son was in Ireland, but did he explain in great detail why he was wanted for car theft? Very likely, I'd have thought.

Graham
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Last edited by Graham : 05-12-2018 at 01:26 AM.
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  #4828  
Old 05-12-2018, 04:10 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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In all fairness to Bob W, he does mention that Ryan/Hanratty had abandoned a hired car at Dublin Airport; see page 138 of 1999 Pan ed of Hanratty: The Final Verdict.

As to Mrs Dinwoodie, Bob W says that Hanratty got off near a picture house, The Regal, Hanratty thought.

In fact, no picture house stood opposite the Cowley newsagent in which Mrs D worked, however a theatre had stood on the junction of Stanley Road and Scotland Road which more or less is opposite the newsagent. This theatre, the Rotunda, was demolished as a result of the attentions of the Luftwaffe during the Liverpool blitz of 1941, yet it would seem that the locals were still using it as a landmark well into the 1960s, if the comments on this page are to be believed.

Could the yell by a bus conductor, "Rotunda Theatre", have led the alighting passenger, whether it be Hanratty or A.N. Other, to assume that there was an extant picture house/theatre in the vicinity?
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  #4829  
Old 05-12-2018, 04:46 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Quote:
In all fairness to Bob W, he does mention that Ryan/Hanratty had abandoned a hired car at Dublin Airport; see page 138 of 1999 Pan ed of Hanratty: The Final Verdict
You're quite right, Spitfire. A small but important fact that I'm afraid didn't stick in my failing memory.....

Re: The Rotunda, I do recall someone on these boards, possibly JiMarilyn, mentioning it as being opposite the Cowley's shop, but I'm sure he said it was a cinema. Steve, on the pre-hack threads, posted some good photos of the area as it is now.

Graham
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  #4830  
Old 05-12-2018, 04:57 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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It is funny how unsubstantiated rumours, such as the one below, can gain credibility in a climate of suspicion such as the one generated by the A6 Murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Limehouse View Post
I've just been checking out Jean Justice's book again and came across a reference that I have been looking for for months!

Hanratty described to police a man he had sat near to on the train on the way to Liverpool. He described the man in detail - right down to his smart cuflinks.

Whilst in prison after his conviction and awaiting his appeal - Hanratty wrote to his mother and mentioned he had had a letter from the man confirming that he had indeed travelled to Liverpool on that day and remembered Hanratty.

An appeal must have gone out for this man in order for him to have written to Hanratty. I wonder what happened to this letter and whether it was followed up?
In fact, the plea for the gent with gold cufflinks made the front pages of most if not all of the nationals in the immediate aftermath of the trial and the phone number of Kleinman was given, below is from the Express of Monday 19th Feb.

The recollection of this gent by Hanratty seems very clear and precise, yet Foot and Woffinden ask us to accept that Hanratty was capable of giving a description of a fellow passenger but when it came to describing the room in which he slept, Hanratty omitted to mention that his room had a bath in it.

Also, Ingledene was almost directly opposite the Windsor pub, which would seem to have provided b&b accommodation. Joe Sayle was sent from the Windsor, which was full, to Ingledene in which he was given the single room, No. 4. That is the one that Mrs Jones thought that Hanratty had occupied.

Would Hanratty not likewise have tried the Windsor? And even if he didn't, would he not have noticed it over a two day period?
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