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  • Originally posted by jason_c View Post
    "Oh murder" may also have been polite rendition of "oh fu.ck". This politeness is either Kelly's or her neighbours or the Newspapers.
    Given Kelly's French pretensions, it might even have been "Ô merde!".

    Just kidding.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Pierre View Post
      Did Prater state that she could recognize the voice?

      Did Prater state that she had heard the voice of Kelly?
      My dear chap, your questions, which appear to be addressed to me, simply do not follow from what I have posted.

      What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said, thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
        My dear chap, your questions, which appear to be addressed to me, simply do not follow from what I have posted.

        What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said, thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder.
        Hi David
        yes it does. but dosnt Joshuas find bump it back up a bit since it was probably common knowledge to people of whitechapel that if your in fear of your life to yell Murder? especially if your indoors?
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          Given Kelly's French pretensions, it might even have been "Ô merde!".

          Just kidding.
          or maybe she yelled "Lizzie". ; )
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Is it being suggested that, as the cry of murder was so frequent in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, a policeman patrolling Millers Court—as postulated by Coroner Macdonald—might not have heeded it?
            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Hi David
              yes it does. but dosnt Joshuas find bump it back up a bit since it was probably common knowledge to people of whitechapel that if your in fear of your life to yell Murder? especially if your indoors?
              Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).
                thanks David
                Ive noticed you seem to lean toward a daylight morning murder when it comes to all things Kelly.

                Whats up? you got something up your sleeve??
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                  What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said
                  Which mitigates the fact that Prater took no particular notice on hearing the cry, but it doesn't mean that she was right to dismiss it.
                  thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder.
                  I'd agree that a cry of murder in the general neighbourhood on any old night is one thing, but the "Miller's Court Cry" might be quite another. In this case, the cry apparently emanated in the direction of Kelly's room, at a time not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death. These factors may elevate the significance of the "Miller's Court Cry" above those cries of a less nefarious nature.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    thanks David
                    Ive noticed you seem to lean toward a daylight morning murder when it comes to all things Kelly.

                    Whats up? you got something up your sleeve??
                    No, I don't lean towards a daylight morning murder at all. In the context of a cry of murder being a frequent occurrence, what I recognise is how easy it is to wake up having heard a cry of murder (which was ignored because it sounded like all the other cries) then learn there was a murder during the night and connect the two events which may not in fact be connected. It's a very common human reaction. My views are wholly unconnected to any thoughts about the time of Kelly's murder, just to question whether it was necessarily at that particular time.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Which mitigates the fact that Prater took no particular notice on hearing the cry, but it doesn't mean that she was right to dismiss it.
                      That I don't follow at all Sam I'm afraid. Are you suggesting that Prater should have got out of bed and investigated every single (frequent) cry of murder she heard in the night?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                        No, I don't lean towards a daylight morning murder at all. In the context of a cry of murder being a frequent occurrence, what I recognise is how easy it is to wake up having heard a cry of murder (which was ignored because it sounded like all the other cries) then learn there was a murder during the night and connect the two events which may not in fact be connected. It's a very common human reaction. My views are wholly unconnected to any thoughts about the time of Kelly's murder, just to question whether it was necessarily at that particular time.
                        got it thanks!
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          I'd agree that a cry of murder in the general neighbourhood on any old night is one thing, but the "Miller's Court Cry" might be quite another. In this case, the cry apparently emanated in the direction of Kelly's room, at a time not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death. These factors may elevate the significance of the "Miller's Court Cry" above those cries of a less nefarious nature.
                          But a time "not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death" is effectively the entire night.

                          Yes, according to Sarah Lewis in her oral testimony, the cry "seemed" to come from the direction of Kelly's room but that was said after knowing that Kelly had been murdered in that room. So it was easy for her to say this. I happen think it's impossible to pinpoint where such sounds are coming from (as humans are not bats). Prater who was right above Kelly's room could only say it was "close by". In her written statement, Lewis herself only said it "seemed to be not far away". Did Lewis actually think it had come from Kelly's room at the time she heard it? Almost certainly not; as a non-resident she probably didn't even know where Kelly's room was.

                          So I disagree that there are any factors which elevate the significance of the cry above all the other cries that were regularly heard at night in that neighbourhood.

                          Prater and Lewis might have heard Kelly being murdered but then again they might not.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                            Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).
                            There is a school of thought that says, if you really wanted to attract people's attention (and had sufficient presence of mind), you should shout "Fire!".

                            Comment


                            • Like the old joke about the Irishman in front of a firing squad.
                              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                                But a time "not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death" is effectively the entire night.
                                As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry? Doubtful.
                                Prater and Lewis might have heard Kelly being murdered but then again they might not.
                                I agree, but it's by no means as 50:50 as one might suppose, if one took the view that "such cries were often heard in the neighbourhood" to apply in general terms. The "neighbourhood" is one thing, but a cry of "Murder!" emanating from Miller's Court itself (even the deceased's room), on the night of a murder, is quite another.
                                Last edited by Sam Flynn; 04-21-2017, 04:10 PM.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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