An experiment

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby


Lets assume for the sake of discussion you are right and the killer did write the GSG.

Lets assume he had been seen by a group of Jewish men

Lets assume your interpretation of the words is right.

We have the "Jews won't take the blame for anything " .

What is it that they won't take the blame for, that causes him to stop and write this?

Their seeing of him, did not stop him, why would he then be angry as one assumes he was to do this?

Why would he write this, What was the purpose in your view?

can you explain that to me please.

All the best

Steve

Hi El
sorry for the late response!
quote wrapping function not seem to be working, so Ill put your questions in quotation marks.

"What is it that they won't take the blame for, that causes him to stop and write this?"

They wont take the blame for anything the writer/killer thinks.
Could be because they interrupted him with stride, forcing him to commit another murder.
Could be in general.
and or it could be he is trying to throw blame in there direction to throw off police.
and or could be he is pissed off at them for interrupting him several times that night.

"Their seeing of him, did not stop him, why would he then be angry as one assumes he was to do this? "

Well, it might have stopped him from mutilating Stride, and it could have angered him there was so many around and seeing him and possibly giving his description to the police.

"Why would he write this, What was the purpose in your view?"

I think he wrote it because IN HIS MIND he was seen and interrupted by several of them that night and was pissed off about it and or wanted to throw off/confuse the police, press or public.

[IchabodCrane]

Hello Ichabod,

You lost me here. Not sure what you mean when you say two Jewish clubs and what is the significance of the great synagogue?

If you look hard enough for a pattern you can pretty much always find one. Could we find evidence for an Irish connection or something else if we looked?

c.d.

If anybody feels very strongly that there is a Jewish connection to these murders can they show a similar pattern associated with the killing of Nichols, Chapman and Kelly? If not, it would seem rather strange that Jack would suddenly develop an ardent anti-semitic streak in the middle of the C5.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Well I guess what makes me so convinced that the murderer wanted to direct suspicion towards the Jews on the night of Sep 29/30, is that one doesn’t even have to look hard to get to the Jewish angle when looking at the events of the night. I would have to look much harder to find Irish, German or Schoolteacher connections scattered all over those events.
- The first murder took place in the backyard of a Jewish Club
- A shout of Lipski was heard shortly before the murder
- The second murder took place in the vicinity of another Jewish Club and the Great Synagogue
- A piece of apron containing a kidney was taken away from the crime scene and then dropped without the kidney in a street with a very high percentage of Jewish residents, underneath a Graffito that could mean something like ‘The Jews are justly blamed’. This was the meaning of the graffito as understood by the policemen who found it, otherwise there would not have been a need to erase it.

Why would JtR suddenly try to direct suspicion towards the Jews after his second murder?
Let’s remind ourselves, what happened after the Chapman murder. A scapegoat was presented in the media. Witness accounts abounded concerning a man known as ‘Leather Apron’. Word on the street was that he was a Jew. Now what would I do if I was the (gentile) killer of these women and wanted to divert suspicion as far away from myself as possible on my next outing? I would try to jump on the Jewish bandwagon, and reinforce the already existing prevalent public opinion that the Ripper was a Jew.

How about Mary Kelly?
Well we have witness and newspaper accounts by a man calling himself George Hutchinson, describing in at least one of the accounts he gave a suspicious character he saw with the victim as being of ‘Jewish appearance’. So there was again a very clear attempt at diverting suspicion toward a Jewish suspect.

Taken together, this all gives very strong indication as to the strategy of the killer on the night of the double event, and the meaning of the graffito, and maybe yet more reason to have a closer look at Hutchinson,

Best regards,
IchabodCrane

[Abby Normal]

Hi c.d.,

Well I guess what makes me so convinced that the murderer wanted to direct suspicion towards the Jews on the night of Sep 29/30, is that one doesn’t even have to look hard to get to the Jewish angle when looking at the events of the night. I would have to look much harder to find Irish, German or Schoolteacher connections scattered all over those events.
- The first murder took place in the backyard of a Jewish Club
- A shout of Lipski was heard shortly before the murder
- The second murder took place in the vicinity of another Jewish Club and the Great Synagogue
- A piece of apron containing a kidney was taken away from the crime scene and then dropped without the kidney in a street with a very high percentage of Jewish residents, underneath a Graffito that could mean something like ‘The Jews are justly blamed’. This was the meaning of the graffito as understood by the policemen who found it, otherwise there would not have been a need to erase it.

Why would JtR suddenly try to direct suspicion towards the Jews after his second murder?
Let’s remind ourselves, what happened after the Chapman murder. A scapegoat was presented in the media. Witness accounts abounded concerning a man known as ‘Leather Apron’. Word on the street was that he was a Jew. Now what would I do if I was the (gentile) killer of these women and wanted to divert suspicion as far away from myself as possible on my next outing? I would try to jump on the Jewish bandwagon, and reinforce the already existing prevalent public opinion that the Ripper was a Jew.

How about Mary Kelly?
Well we have witness and newspaper accounts by a man calling himself George Hutchinson, describing in at least one of the accounts he gave a suspicious character he saw with the victim as being of ‘Jewish appearance’. So there was again a very clear attempt at diverting suspicion toward a Jewish suspect.

Taken together, this all gives very strong indication as to the strategy of the killer on the night of the double event, and the meaning of the graffito, and maybe yet more reason to have a closer look at Hutchinson,

Best regards,
IchabodCrane

Bingo IC
absolutely effing Bingo! Ive said much the same many times.

the only caveat for me in your post is the location near jewish locations as there were so many around. but that could have been somewhat planned also.

Ive also repeated many times that the only two direct pieces of evidence that specifically use the word jew is the GSG and hutchs description of his suspect.
Hmmm...

[c.d.]

Hello Ichabod and Abby,

I am still not clear on what you mean by a second Jewish club.

If Schwartz had a distinct Jewish appearance and the B.S. man felt that he was trying to insinuate himself in his personal business then certainly a shout of Lipski would be warranted much like a shout of Wop or Fatso if those characteristics applied. I don't see it as being particularly significant.

Any murder site is going to have other buildings around it to which one can attach significance to if one is so inclined.

The police may have felt that the GSG was anti-semitic but as they did not write it that is simply their interpretation.

I think we could also reasonably ask if there was any significance to the location of Hanbury street or Buck's Row or a connection to doss houses or nearby churches.

As for Hutchinson, I don't really see his witness account as being significant with respect to a Jewish connection.

So it looks like we are going to have to disagree but that is what these boards are for.

c.d.

[Rosella]

Bucks Row was near to a disused Jewish cemetery. The Konin Synagogue was located at 48 Hanbury St, and was founded between 1881 and 1887. There were several synagogues located in Hanbury St.

Most were founded at a later date than 1888 but the fact that there was more than one on a single street does show that the streets around were becoming inhabited by Jews, in a way which would make some anti Semitic Cockneys (of which I believe the Ripper was one) extremely annoyed and frustrated. As well, as has been pointed out, stories and rumours about Leather Apron abounded in the East End at this time.

http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/London/east-end_addresses.htm

[IchabodCrane]

Bingo IC
absolutely effing Bingo! Ive said much the same many times.

the only caveat for me in your post is the location near jewish locations as there were so many around. but that could have been somewhat planned also.

Ive also repeated many times that the only two direct pieces of evidence that specifically use the word jew is the GSG and hutchs description of his suspect.
Hmmm...

Hi Abby,

I am glad that we have the same opinion on this aspect of the case.
The great synagogue was pretty much of a Jewish landmark, so one could argue it was the immediate 'Plan B' that sprang to mind once the first murder was interrupted.

Best regards,
IchabodCrane

[IchabodCrane]

Hello Ichabod and Abby,

I am still not clear on what you mean by a second Jewish club.

If Schwartz had a distinct Jewish appearance and the B.S. man felt that he was trying to insinuate himself in his personal business then certainly a shout of Lipski would be warranted much like a shout of Wop or Fatso if those characteristics applied. I don't see it as being particularly significant.

Any murder site is going to have other buildings around it to which one can attach significance to if one is so inclined.

The police may have felt that the GSG was anti-semitic but as they did not write it that is simply their interpretation.

I think we could also reasonably ask if there was any significance to the location of Hanbury street or Buck's Row or a connection to doss houses or nearby churches.

As for Hutchinson, I don't really see his witness account as being significant with respect to a Jewish connection.

So it looks like we are going to have to disagree but that is what these boards are for.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

fully ok to disagree, but I will try to elaborate a bit on my story:

I do not believe that in his first murders JtR had any intention to divert suspicion towards anyone. He was just a serial killer on the prowl.

My point would be that via the LeatherApron scare, our killer was presented with the idea as well as the opportunity to divert public suspicion as well as the police investigation further into the Jewish corner. And he set out to take advantage of that opportunity. Which is why he pocketed some chalk along with his knife and went to Berner street. Here, a Jewish club was located, on the premises of which he intended the next murder to happen.

Now that job got interrupted. No evisceration could be performed, no organs could be taken away. The evening was not complete.

What to do? Where to go looking for the next victim? How to keep the plan going to put the police on the scent of the Jews? A Jewish landmark, and possibly another Jewish club, sprang to mind. We all know what happened next.

And then on the way home, drop the apron and write a nice little message for the public and the police. For it would have been a big coincidence to drop the apron exactly under an otherwise invisible already existing graffito.

As for Hutchinson, he tried to frame a Jew. It is very obvious.

There can always be room for doubt, but for me, this is a continuous storyline.

Best regards,
IchabodCrane

[Pierre]

If anybody feels very strongly that there is a Jewish connection to these murders can they show a similar pattern associated with the killing of Nichols, Chapman and Kelly? If not, it would seem rather strange that Jack would suddenly develop an ardent anti-semitic streak in the middle of the C5.

c.d.

Good point.

Regards, Pierre

[Rosella]

Have you read the posts in this thread that point to various Jewish connections to the earlier murders, Pierre? The Leather Apron terror, the disused Jewish cemetery etc?

[Pierre]

Have you read the posts in this thread that point to various Jewish connections to the earlier murders, Pierre? The Leather Apron terror, the disused Jewish cemetery etc?

But are they connections to the murders or are they connections to the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

[Rosella]

Possibly only the murderer would be able to answer that.
I do believe however, that the Ripper was a local, possibly a Cockney. Since his teens he may well have been watching, with a growing resentment, street after street in 'his' neighbourhood being 'taken over' in his mind, by people who looked different, spoke differently, ate differently, who kept to their own communities as much as possible as most new migrants do.

He therefore, in his intolerance, (and he certainly was not alone in this) , could have felt vast resentment and growing rage against people he and others regarded as grasping 'jabbering' aliens. Jack may very well have thought, as he killed and went on killing, that the more fingers pointed at these interlopers the better and if by killing near their clubs etc, more suspicion, so better still!

[IchabodCrane]

Possibly only the murderer would be able to answer that.
I do believe however, that the Ripper was a local, possibly a Cockney. Since his teens he may well have been watching, with a growing resentment, street after street in 'his' neighbourhood being 'taken over' in his mind, by people who looked different, spoke differently, ate differently, who kept to their own communities as much as possible as most new migrants do.

He therefore, in his intolerance, (and he certainly was not alone in this) , could have felt vast resentment and growing rage against people he and others regarded as grasping 'jabbering' aliens. Jack may very well have thought, as he killed and went on killing, that the more fingers pointed at these interlopers the better and if by killing near their clubs etc, more suspicion, so better still!

Well at least it is clear that the police interpreted the GSG as blaming the Jews for the murders that had happened. There are no two ways on that. Let's close this experiment.

[IchabodCrane]

But are they connections to the murders or are they connections to the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,
Well at least it is clear that the police interpreted the GSG as blaming the Jews for the murders that had happened. There are no two ways on that. Let's close this experiment.
Best regards
IchabodCrane

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,
Well at least it is clear that the police interpreted the GSG as blaming the Jews for the murders that had happened. There are no two ways on that. Let's close this experiment.
Best regards
IchabodCrane

I wish I could. But the understanding of the GSG must be based on an individual long term problem. It is not a matter of a random reaction in the street.

The police did not understand that. And since the interpretations of the police never helped them to catch the killer, why should we believe in their obviously hopeless interpretations.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

The police did not understand that. And since the interpretations of the police never helped them to catch the killer, why should we believe in their obviously hopeless interpretations.

Well your interpretations haven't helped you to find the killer, Pierre, so why should we believe in your obviously hopeless interpretations?